In this first of two interviews on the whole EMR discussion, Molly talks to Lena Pu in California, USA, about the technical issues and hazards associated with 5G in particular.

  • How does 5G differ to the other G’s
  • “297G” is how Lena refers to 5G because of the wide spectrum of frequencies under the 5G label
  • How can we protect ourselves
  • The main “weapon”, Lena’s informed consent form


Click the link below to watch the interview:

Read the transcript:

The contents of the transcript will be posted here when edited and available.

Dr Catherine Fyans, medical practitoner with 40 years of experience discussing with Molly Knight on 28th July 2020:

  • The effects of sustained fear on the immune system
  • Reliability of Covid19 testing
  • Mass testing and positive ‘cases’  What does this actually mean?
  • Pro’s and con’s of wearing a mask. What does the science say?
  • What are the health and wellbeing implications of the current sanctions?
  • Susceptibility to infection rather than just focusing on barrier methods to viral spread.


Click on the link below to watch the interview:

Read the transcript below:

Molly Knight 0:00
Hello, everyone. Welcome to Health Australia Party talk. Tonight, I’m talking with Dr. Catherine Fyans, and she’s a medical practitioner 40 years of experience so you get to see pretty much everything in 40 years. She works as a holistic or integrative medical practitioner. And that really means that mind body link is very important to her its her main interest, understanding that our physical health is intrinsically linked with the way our mind works with our consciousness, our subconscious mind and our life experiences. So, being an integrative practitioner she’s sort of got a foot in both camps of, of healthcare and how to look after patients looks looking at the natural side, and how the mind works and looking at the Medical paradigm as well. So, we’re going to look at a couple of camps I guess we could call it tonight is about what’s really happening in Australia, and particularly in Victoria, because that’s where Catherine’s from, about what’s happening with this virus and what it all means. What does it mean to us? And we’re getting the whole story on the Coronavirus or COVID-19. What effects what effects on our emotional and mental well being does all of this have? And I think that’s something that Catherine certainly can address because it’s not being addressed out there in the public at all. What’s the reliability of the COVID tests? And what does the mass testing mean? And what do positive cases mean? How does this all fit in? And how do we live and work with this? Catherine’s going to talk about the pros and cons of wearing a mask and looking at what the science is saying and just what the implications of these current sanctions are how does that affect people? And also the thing that I’m I love bugs as all my patients know, what’s the susceptibility to infection, rather than just focusing on barrier methods of this viral spread. So we’ve got quite a broad look at this COVID the Coronavirus and how it’s affecting us. And, you know, as a health practitioner of also many years, I find it a little distressing, that I can’t say certain things that are we’re not allowed to talk about certain things. And I think that in itself is a red flag to me that tells me something’s not just not quite right here. And we really need to look deeper and see how we circumnavigate what’s going on. So that we come out healthy alive and on top of it all. So with a great pleasure, I welcome Dr. Catherine Fyans. Welcome Catherine, thank you so much for joining us tonight.

Dr Catherine Fyans 3:11
Hi, Molly. My pleasure. Great to be here. Thank you.

Molly Knight 3:14
Lovely. Shall we start off tonight? Let’s start off by talking about the mass testing because that’s huge in in Victoria at the moment. Yeah. And we’ll work our way through the physical things to how this is affecting all of us emotionally and mentally. So what does this mass testing mean? Why are they doing it? And obviously, if you’re testing lots and lots of people, your figures are going to go up and up and up. So what does this actually mean?

Dr Catherine Fyans 3:50
Well, good question, Molly. Before I start, I’m just going to say that I’m not a an epidemiologist, so not a biologist. I’m not an infectious diseases expert, I’m a person who happens to have been a medical practitioner for over 40 years, and I have a particular interest, as you said, in the mind body connection. And I’m not representing the medical world in any of my statements or views. And I’m certainly not giving specific advice I suggest any individual go to their own healthcare practitioners to get advice. So I just want to make that clear. I also want to acknowledge the people who have died and have suffered through COVID-19. I think it’s important to state that there has been some real suffering involved with this. And, you know, let’s just acknowledge all of that right at the beginning, okay, to be honest, I’ve got more questions than answers and you know, the full picture of what’s going on who knows? I don’t even think the experts know some more than others, but a lot more questions than answers. So with the mass testing, and this is particularly prevalent in Victoria, as you know, were in level three lockdown. This is our second round. And now the wearing of masks has been mandated. So essentially, we cannot leave home without a mask, okay? And we’re up for a $200 fine if we do not wear a mask and that’s created all sorts of interesting scenarios, and maybe we’ll come back to that. So, right from the get go Molly with this whole pandemic. Look, I must say a lot of it just didn’t make sense. Practice for 40 years, I’ve seen epidemics come and go and I know this is a pandemic, how to use that word but unprecedented. And it’s a so called novel virus but a lot of things we’re doing now in 40 years 46 if you include my medical school training I’ve never come across before. So I’m intrigued and you know if there are experts out there epidemiologists or infectious diseases, medical people, I would love their perspective. So with the mass testing in Victorian, this is what I noticed when we we had a say about two week interval between the first lockdown and the second lockdown. So things started to relax. restaurants were opening, there was still the social distancing and all of that, but live in gyms were open in life is getting a little bit back to normal. And I noticed and maybe it happened before that I’m not sure was overseas for some months, earlier this year. There has been a very fervent push to have people tested. Now I’m talking about the general population. Now I’ve never come across that before. And I don’t know if that’s occurring in other states. But there’s this big push for people to be tested. Now, for example, and I’m going to quote from the Australian Government Department of Health yesterday in last 24 hours, and this is this was printed yesterday, there were 51,966 people tested in a 24 hour period. and out of that there were 549 cases. Okay. Now, all this time, I’ve been saying, What’s the case? What’s the case? Because in my training the case was the person with the disease. You know, in the old days, we used to say all his case, so, you know, go see the case in bed 25, in Ward six or whatever, and a bit of a dehumanizing term, but a case in my mind in my training was someone with a disease. But these figures like 549 cases, firstly, it’s quite alarming because a lot of people I think, assume, particularly if it’s on the mainstream news that cases someone with a serious illness. So I looked into that. And the case is not necessarily someone with an illness, it’s someone who has tested positive on on a test. Now, my concern there is that it’s fine to get figures. And there must be a rationale of course, but it can give quite an alarming message to the general public, particularly when the pitch of fear is way up here, particularly in Victoria. So 549 cases doesn’t mean 549 unwell people but some people assume, or, you know, we’re hearing that in dramatic tones on the nightly news, these very unwell people. So it’s putting out that you know, atmosphere of alarm and is palpable down and Victoria can tell you and so I just looked at some stats so you okay, if I go through this, yeah.

Molly Knight 8:54
Yeah, because because 50, 51,000 and 500 positives that’s like about 1% isn’t it? But not 1% that are symptomatic.

Dr Catherine Fyans 9:06
Exactly. Exactly. So that’s the question of course. And, you know, public policy is made on those figures. That could be concerning. So anyway, I looked at the the figures and this was from yesterday, the Australian government, Department of Health. So total cases in Australia from the 22nd of January this year, that’s about six months ago, 14,935. Total number of deaths 161, Australia wide and six months. And you know, as I said, we’re very respectful of those people who’ve suffered in any way through this. But I’m just trying to give a perspective here. And then 259 people hospitalized now I thought that was a typo when I first read that so 259 people hospitalized and we don’t know if those people have comorbidities or not, we don’t really kno w the context of that. And on it goes, now the intriguing thing also is that in New South Wales where you live and correct me if I’m wrong, and anyone can correct me if I’m wrong, but there were 17 cases yesterday and compared to quote cases, 549 cases in Victoria. Now we’ve got similar population and similar lifestyle and i don’t think New South Wales is in complete lockdown to the extent we are and I believe there’s not the mandated wearing of mask at that stage.

Molly Knight 10:49
Correct. Yeah, yep. The lockdown isn’t anything like Victoria Well, yeah, there’s really no lockdown here at the moment.

Dr Catherine Fyans 10:57
Okay. Lucky you I’m wondering why we have over 500 cases in Victoria and 17 in New South Wales. So what I would like to know, I couldn’t actually find the figures is, is that cases per people tested or not is that you know how many tested people were tested in New South Wales to get 17 cases compared to Victoria. So I’m just a bit confused about these inconsistency. So it raises quite a few questions about what is the case and really, why are we doing it? It’s not like okay, you have a positive test is the cure. You know, the only thing in my mind is that people are further You know, there are further sanctions were applied. And I’m wondering why the testing is done now. And it was done when since a lockdown was relaxed, and it’s not done or maybe after maybe will be in they will be compared to figures after six weeks of lockdown. So that intrigues me. And it confuses me. And I just wonder what it’s all about, as I said, if someone can enlighten me I’m more than happy to get some expert input that might be able to put some clarity on to this.

Molly Knight 12:15
Yes, agree. I mean, it certainly doesn’t make any sense because in a pandemic, you isolate the ill or the infectious not the well,

Dr Catherine Fyans 12:24
well, yes, exactly. Well, that’s exactly

Molly Knight 12:29
a lot of it’s not making sense at all. Is it? Yeah.

Dr Catherine Fyans 12:32
Well, no, it’s not from as I said, I’m not an epidemiologist. But I just wonder why this is in it’s quite a fervent push of testing. And as I said, on the nightly news, and now break it down a bit, but the first thing people hear and I don’t watch much news, but if ever I turn on the TV, it’s Victoria has so many cases, so many cases. And, you know, to be honest, I’m concerned about the effects of this fear this heightened fear that has been going on for months now, this is not like a few weeks, it’s been going on for months that people are subject to, and you know, people have different susceptibilities of that. But we’re not looking at the health sides of this level of fear that’s been sustained for quite a long time now. And the question is, okay.

Molly Knight 13:21
Yes, it’s some, I think the repercussions of what is occurring is going to be far greater than anticipated or expected. Physically, I think, you know, to me, I look at this virus and go, it doesn’t quite seem like a pandemic, to me, to me a pandemic. And again, I could be wrong. And this is just my perspective. A pandemic has the hospitals chockers, they’re full, there’s no room for anyone else. Well, exactly. And that’s not happening. Well And in New South Wales, New York. Yes, yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Dr Catherine Fyans 14:10
Sorry. You know, we’re here but you know, the people working on the frontline, the frontline, the hospitals are jammed and there are so many respirators, et cetera, et cetera. But when I looked at the figure, as I said, I thought is this a typo? 259 total hospital and maybe it is 259 total hospitalized Australia wide since the 22nd. of January. I don’t know if that’s overwhelming hospitals.

Molly Knight 14:38
Well, from 14,935 cases Yeah. To 259 hospitalizations. Yes. Not even close to what the normal yearly influenza rates are

Dr Catherine Fyans 14:58
Not Know, we know that, you know, roughly 900 people died of influenza in Australia last year. And it seems we are, do we still have influenza, are people testing for it? That’s the other question I would have we you know, we’re very, very, very focused on the SARS cov 2 virus and you to make the distinction The COVID-19 is the disease. SAS cov 2 is the virus. And that distinction is not always made, but there were about 900 deaths in Australia from influenza last year and I didn’t you know, apart from obviously the people involved. We didn’t bat an eyelid. Sorry, why why is there this dramatic response to what’s going on now in this country, I might add. Now, people will argue they’ll say Well, we’ve got less cases because of the lockdown because of the masks but the problem was always coming out of the lockdown and I predicted this months ago, as did many other people. Is that coming out of the lockdown will be a problem? And how often are we going back in and out in and out in and out of lockdown and what else is going to be suggested if this continues? Now I used to know something called herd immunity. Somehow that’s not it hasn’t come into the picture much. I’m reassured If I hear a lot of cases, but not a lot of unwell people, because to me that saying to me most people are only a little affected by this.

Molly Knight 16:35
Exactly. Yeah, they’ve already gotten it and

Dr Catherine Fyans 16:37
made immunity and exactly or they’re little affected by this virus. And we know there’s some talk of you know, the antibodies not being sustained in people who have the units and that’s a whole different argument. But when I heard those figures, I thought well, so many cases cases, so many people are unwell that’s saying it’s people are not affected. We know that there is a very susceptible group so we’re not trying to diminish that some people are really susceptible to these things as they are to influenza. Correct. Yeah. other diseases. And, and you know, there is a group, obviously, who are particularly vulnerable. And clearly they should be protected. But I guess the question begging is, should we turn our lives upside down quite literally. And lock down pretty much the whole community and the ramifications from that we, you know, people don’t like to talk about, you’re so focused on the virus and the immediate threat of that, that this whole other side doesn’t get much of a look in.

Molly Knight 17:47
Yeah, that’s quite true. That’s true. to say nothing of all the businesses,

Dr Catherine Fyans 17:51
yeah, that are

Molly Knight 17:53
closed and they quite likely may never open again. It’s hard to know. It’s But the financial stress that’s coming from this huge, huge, it’s huge. And I believe to, correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe that in Victoria, there’s a monetary incentive to get yourself tested. So if you’re positive, you get quite a few dollars. I believe.

Dr Catherine Fyans 18:21
I can’t give you the exact facts on that. I did see something about $300 being offered for testing under certain conditions, certain circumstances. I did actually try and look that up because it intrigued me why why would people be offered money?

Molly Knight 18:38
It doesn’t make sense unless they have an agenda that requires bigger numbers to validate.

Dr Catherine Fyans 18:47
It begs the question, as I said, I’ve never known mass testing of the population before so as I said, if someone can enlighten me and there’s a really good rationale fantastic. I just don’t see it.

Molly Knight 19:03
Yes, Agree, Agree. What about the reliability of this testing? What’s your thought there?

Dr Catherine Fyans 19:11
Well, no, no test is perfect. Okay, every test has its positives, you know, potential false negatives and false positives as does this test. And again, I was trying to do a bit of research, and it really depends on where you’re looking for your research. So there is a well known pathology company in this area, and they state that it has a very high the PCR test has which is looking for, basically viral RNA. It has a very high specificity and a high sensitivity. And I just say it’s very high. But then I’ve looked at other sources that say, maybe not so high or that there are some potential issues with the tests. Now. I’m not saying I’m not suggesting people don’t be tested. I just think it’s good to know both sides of the story. And you know, as a doctor, my duty of care is to say, there’s always two sides of the story there’s always pros and cons. It’s not a unilateral answer, you need a lateralal problem, you need a lateralal solution. It’s like, let’s have a measured assessment of what’s going on. So let me see if I can find this, Molly.

Molly Knight 20:25
Yes. There’s such a lot of conflicting information coming through isn’t there? That’s what I’ve found itself. You can read one report and it’ll say one thing the next report says the opposite. So it’s very, very difficult.

Dr Catherine Fyans 20:44
And and what I’m finding is there’s a study and then it’s taken down and it’s called false science. That’s happening very rapidly, actually. It’s like that looks like a reputable study. No, it’s gone. Gone. So it is the essentially Can I say a wee bit of bias, you know, looking? Yeah, I think so. Yeah, you’re right. Good. Interesting. And I think most people know this. So very reputable journal, the Lancet. And they put out a study related hydroxychloroquine. In May. This is well known. And it was found out that results were fabricated, and the study was taken down within a couple of weeks. So you know, if the Lancet can have false science, then I guess anyone, and I’m not trying to knock that journal. Not at all. It’s a reputable journal. But you know, I think all parties are subject to bias. And yeah,

Molly Knight 21:43
it’s interesting. I saw a video today with a group of frontline doctors in the US.

Dr Catherine Fyans 21:50
I saw it too Molly

Molly Knight 21:51
And they were some of them very, very passionate about using the hydroxychloroquine they use it, they use it preventatively I think she said 200 milligrams twice a week. And they use it to treat if you’re fully got the disease. So with no deaths, yes. So I cannot understand why this information is hidden or retracted because that video now is censored and it’s gone off YouTube. Yeah. yet. These are frontline workers. They’re the people right there. Exactly. And they’re saying they have an issue with not being able to get the information out to people, everybody could have some preventative, cheap treatment.

Dr Catherine Fyans 22:46

Molly Knight 22:46
And yet, why why is this not being told to the public? It’s not right.

Dr Catherine Fyans 22:52
And I can’t talk about hydroxychloroquine specifically, but I did see that and this is, you know, A woman, a physician, a frontline physician, and remember, she said that she had 350 patients. And she with with covid 19. And she treated them all with hydroxychloroquine. So this is, you know, an observational, anecdotal, and study, you could say or her experience. And she claimed that none of them died. And they all recovered quite well. Now, you know, she claimed that. So it’s just going on our belief, but she had a group of doctors and they’re all board certified. They seem to be a reasonable group. The thing that I heard with that is that it’s very hard to prescribe hydroxychloroquine as a doctor and it’s blocked by pharmacists and maybe in some states, I don’t know if it’s the US one, I’m not sure what the situation is. HIPAA certainly not recommended here. And you wonder why not it’s been around for many years, I think 60 odd years it has been used extensively for a whole lot of other conditions and does it have any possible adverse effect? Of course, if a patient on the planet does, but overall, it’s relatively safe. And if it’s saving someone’s lives, you would say that probably those potential side effects are fairly negligible. Now that the interesting contrast here is that there’s been so many brakes put on that product. It you know, we were hearing about other products being rolled out at a mass level that are fast being fast tracked, and we’re talking about potentially for billions of people worldwide, but that’s okay. So I don’t understand that.

Molly Knight 24:51
There’s something wrong with this picture, isn’t it when a proven drug that has worked for around 60 years and in fact I think was it from 2005 when SARS hit, was it 2005?. They used it with success. Yeah. So now suddenly, because perhaps there’s a different agenda at stake and they’re rushing out medications and vaccines that aren’t tested definitely aren’t going to be fully tested because the time isn’t there to do it. And yet, that’s acceptable. Well, it’s, it’s just not acceptable to me. I want a better explanation.

Dr Catherine Fyans 25:33
Yes, I mean, there are inconsistencies. And I think it’s I think it’s fair to ask the question, why not? I think we don’t actually ask it often enough. Certainly not. What Why are we doing this? Well, you know, why are these it’s acceptable there, but it’s not acceptable there. And why is this happening?

Molly Knight 25:53
Yeah, there’s something wrong with this picture. Yes, for sure. Like

Dr Catherine Fyans 25:58
I’m so right from the beginning. Molly. You know, we certainly look for the research as best we can. And we know it’s very conflicting. It’s a minefield, trying to get all the data because it changes rapidly. And this whole scenario is changing quite rapidly, but right from the get go, like, my gestalt, I’m sorry, but you know, that’s, that’s to me. As you know, it’s reliable. In addition to the scientific backup, let’s use both Yes, I thought my gut let’s say said this, there’s something very strange about this. Very strange now maybe other doctors don’t have that opinion. Their experience might be different. So no, it’s all it’s all fine. But it still doesn’t make sense.

Molly Knight 26:46
Yeah, I agree. And I find it interesting that um, well, I guess because we’re starting to see all these doctors from America speaking out and some very vocally and yet nobody here is saying boo, and they must be having the same experiences. I can’t imagine that it’s different here.

Dr Catherine Fyans 27:08
Look, I found that quite intriguing too. As I mentioned, I was overseas for some months. So I’ve come back in the middle of this, so to speak. And, but you know, I’ve been waiting, it’s like, well, let’s see what this medical group’s gonna say. Let’s see what this medical group’s gonna say. And I’m still waiting. And it’s like, Where, where are the Where are the voices? Maybe they’re there and I’m not hearing them. That’s possible, but I’m not hearing them. There are some well known nutritional doctors who are promoting things like vitamin D and, you know, good nutritional simple things that can be very, very, very helpful for our immune systems. So there are some people out there for sure. But generally, I’m not hearing a lot apart from you know, the main….

Molly Knight 28:00
Yeah, it’s very quiet, isn’t it? Um, Catherine, I just got a question from someone and they’ve said, with with the COVID-19 testing, why are the tests so invasive and painful? The probe they have they push it right into the back of the nose, what? What’s your thoughts on that?

Dr Catherine Fyans 28:20
Okay, so with the testing, you know, the same swab test the back of the pharynx, and also the nasal pharynx, which is up the nose, because the nose pharynx is tucked right behind the upper part of the nose. And the tests of the nose pharynx have been around. That’s not nothing particularly new. I, you know, the idea would be to get an adequate sample from that part of the nose because it would be harboring more viral particles. That’s the only rationale I can give.

Molly Knight 28:48
Okay, I’m

Dr Catherine Fyans 28:51
Its an uncomfortable test. For sure. Hmm. And then there’s the blood tests, the serology tests, which is more of a retrospective test it’s checking for antibodies. So it’s more someone’s had the disease.

Molly Knight 29:08
So would that be more accurate if to see if you’ve got antibodies so you’ve had it whereas with the with the nasal swabs, there’s so many false positives and false negatives would the blood test not be more accurate?

Dr Catherine Fyans 29:26
Look like I can’t actually give you figures on that, to be honest, but every test has potential false positives and negatives because they can cross react too. And there are some data about some test cross reacting with corona viruses from common colds. Testing positive, because of cross reacting with other similar viruses. There’s always an element of imperfection in anything they can be good, but not perfect. That’s the only rational explanation I can give you about the nasal pharynx swab. A lot of people do find it very invasive and

Molly Knight 30:03
very uncomfortable I believe

Dr Catherine Fyans 30:06

Molly Knight 30:08
What about Catherine what about the pros and cons of wearing the masks now that it’s mandatory in Victoria, you can’t go anywhere without one?. What’s the good what’s the bad?

Dr Catherine Fyans 30:20
It’s a total minefield to talk about that but but I will. So in Victoria or at least parts of Victoria, not all of Victoria, Melbourne and some other areas. It’s mandated. Okay, so I’m not telling anyone to wear or not wear masks, you know, the, the sanctions are there. But I’m just giving some general information because there are always two sides to the story. So the my main idea from wearing the mask, as far as I know is that people are not shedding the virus for others to be get infected. Now we know traditionally masks are used in a clinical setting. The surgical setting so that the secretions from surgeons upper respiratory tract not falling into the open cavity in surgery. So that was mainly why they came about but also some protective reasons through for healthcare workers. So there’s been a lot of debate and I have looked at a lot of studies, Molly, and a lot of them have been pulled down and just seen a lot of conflicting advice, to be honest. But when you really look into it, firstly, there’s a lot of inconsistency of the type of mask people were. So you know, the most accurate mask as far as I know is the N95. And I think that’s meant to have 95% accuracy, maybe that’s why it’s called N95. It … droplets spread….contain the virus, but as for the rest there is a great deal of inconsistency in the type of mask and therefore they they’re effectiveness. But the surgical masks are only designed for single use they weren’t designed to be using the same mask day after day and with say the cloth mask, they do advise that you have three or four layers of material that need to be watched in a very you know very frequently because potential concern is that if they’re moist and wet they can harbor viruses and bacteria and become an awful breeding site and it doesn’t take a lot of you can see how that can be the case so the advice is to wash them very frequently. Now, I guess people do their best but it’s not always very practical. And I’ll just give you a story from my life. I was going for a walk the other day and trek through the country there was I had a mask on but I think I was drinking a cup of coffee. I took it down to have a sip of water it was but it was momentarily off my nose. And a jogger ran by now he had a bandana, around his nose joggers don’t have to wear a mask when they’re jogging here but he did wasn’t a mask bandana but over his nose he knew it was clearly it was moist and wet and sweating and he ran by me and yelled some abuse at me because I had my mask off my nose momentarily. I hope they don’t come and get me for that, all jokes aside it is a bit like that here. And so you know the practicality of you know, the inconsistency of them. It doesn’t seem to matter as long as you have something over here, okay?

Molly Knight 33:39
It’s okay if joggers don’t wear them?

Dr Catherine Fyans 33:42
It’s okay if joggers don’t wear them, I think cyclists if you doing strenuous exercise, but the point being that what he was wearing was totally ineffective. I knew that. But we’re getting the sort of atmosphere there’s a real mask war going on down here. And it’s unpleasant. It is very unpleasant because pretty much people who are very pro mask and that’s fine. Don’t you know we as I said, it’s mandated here. They’re not necessarily appreciative of people who might say, Well, you know, there’s two sides to the story. there’s pros and cons, let’s discuss it. And a lot of us are called selfish if we even open that discussion, because people are seeing that as a direct threat and it’s getting beyond that, you know, there are things alluding to you’re a mass murder, if you’re not wearing a mask, you’re blaming these people, I think because of the heightened, you know, this mass media, fear, fear, fear, you know, pumping out pretty much 24/7. People are in survival mode. And when we’re in survival mode, which is meant to be a short term, not a long term thing. And I’m not saying everyone is a clearly they’re not but some people are. The focus is very, very narrow and people put the focus on what you know to ensure their survival right now for a lot of people that masks and if you’re not wearing a mask you you’re you’re a threat to me and it directly out of primal level for some people it’s you’re potentially killing me if you’re not wearing a mask and there’s a bit of a mob mentality out there mate yes a minority of course most people are really tolerant and we you know, we have to wear masks anyway. But there is an unpleasant aspect of it. And it concerns me what this has done to our community because there’s a real division happening and the other thing that concerns me Molly and you’ve been a natural health therapist probably will be able to relate to this. It’s a very unilateral argument that our protection from viruses is just due to physical barriers masks perspex gel, locked down now to me that’s, that’s it. A very small aspect of, you know, protecting us from an infection or an illness. And it’s giving a locus of control out there. Like, okay, something out there can get me therefore, I’ve have something out there to protect me. Now, I don’t see that in my own health at all. I actually, and I’m not adopt my views. And this is related to my mind body studies. I don’t believe anyone will give me a virus. I believe that if I have a certain level of susceptibility, that virus is going to find me it’s not someone giving it to me. And if I don’t have that susceptibility, I can be surrounded, and I’m not going to get it. So I’m concerned about there being a very unilateral sort of focus on this. And related to that, you know, things that we can easily do and very cost effectively do to, to, you know, help our immune systems simple as vitamin D, zinc, these are well established. adequate sleep, and stress reduction, all of that goes a long way to make us less susceptible to getting something. Now, I’m not saying barrier methods are not helpful. But if if we give, you know, we’re giving ourselves a false sense of security in saying, we just kind of block out the virus. And, you know, we’re fine. Now, this has been going on for months now. And the question is for how much longer? And I don’t even want to think about the answer, to be honest. And we’ve had a long time to be looking at other aspects of our health. Why is not the nightly news telling us about things that we can do to boost our immune system?

Molly Knight 37:45
Exactly. Yeah. It’s like there’s just a lock down on information, as well as locking down people.

Dr Catherine Fyans 37:56
But I don’t separate health from life. That, to me is a totally, it’s a total misconception, you know, we our collective understanding is health’s there, life’s there, to me it’s all connected, always mind bodies connect. And that’s the way I see health and I get, you know, to separate them makes no sense at all. So our levels of stress, a very big factor regarding whether we’re susceptible to an infection or not in our immune systems. And particularly if we’re in a heightened state of fear, not everyone is but some people are, we know some people who’ve been in, you know, extreme anxiety about this for a long, long time. We know people who’ve virtually not left their houses for several months, so some people are very anxious. Hmm. Now, we’re designed for, you know, short term stress, not long term stress, and it directly affects our immune system. If we’re in that heightened level of stress, we have to look at that side as well. If we want a balanced picture of what’s going on. Let’s look at that, you know, the psychological emotional and social implications of the lockdown on our health. And you know, the people who’ve lost their jobs. The people who are you know, heading into poverty, people have lost their business.

Molly Knight 39:21
Yes, the ramifications are going to be extreme, I believe,

Dr Catherine Fyans 39:25
People who can’t go to church to worship, we can’t gather. We are communal creatures. It goes against our very nature to be separated. Now, a lot of people have families and I might have, you know, a nice home with a garden er, not everyone lives like that some people live alone in a small apartment. And you know that situation is quite dire for a lot of them. And they count. They count it’s not about will the virus get me. It’s like, they also count you know, the depression, the anxiety, the suicide and sadly and I wasn’t directly involved with these people but I heard of two suicides in teenagers recently like in very recent weeks. And it might’nt be related to COVID might have nothing to do with it. But these figures just don’t make the headlines. It’s all about the virus and how can I protect from the virus. It’s creating a division in my community that is very uncomfortable, you know? So we’re gonna look at that the whole picture. We are communal creatures, we are meant to be near people. There’s a hormone called oxytocin and we know it as a love hormone, but it has many other functions. But it’s related to calming stress, and it’s anti inflammatory and it’s an antioxidant. And if we’re not getting that human contact particularly people living alone, that level of that hormone which actually enhances their immune system is being diminished. We don’t look at that it doesn’t make the nighttime news because people are looking when we’re in survival mode. What is the thing in front of me that’s going to affect me, virus, you’re not wearing a mask, you are a direct threat to me and and I’m not blaming these people, because that’s the way you know, defense system is designed.

Molly Knight 41:27
That keeps us safe.

Dr Catherine Fyans 41:29
It’s such an imbalanced picture. And, you know, the way I see it, there’s two main camps of people related to how they’re reacting to this. And there’s a whole spectrum of course, but one end its survival at any cost. I will do anything. I will give up any freedom if you can ensure, they, the authorities, my survival, I don’t care what it is and if anyone interferes with that

Molly Knight 42:11

Dr Catherine Fyans 42:13

Molly Knight 42:15
sorry, we seem to have lost contact there for a minute. You must have been saying something important. Yeah. I’ve just had a question come in. Are you able to talk about germ theory and terrain theory?

Dr Catherine Fyans 42:39
Yeah. Yeah. Sure. Okay. Put that in thinking. All right. So Western medicine is based on germ theory. And germ theory is a germ can get me it will cause a disease, something comes into a body. We haven’t even talked about the microbiome by the way, it would be nice to mention that because it’s a whole other it’s very relevant. The germ theory is something from the outside will, will come into my body. Or it might be something in my body that turns pathogenic and will cause the illness. Terrain theory is, well, that will only happen if there’s a certain level of susceptibility within my system.

Molly Knight 43:27
Exactly. So it comes back to well, the microbiome but also making sure you’ve got good levels of vitamin C, vitamin D, zinc, which we know supports the immune system.

Dr Catherine Fyans 43:42
Totally. And these are very accessible, simple things that can be very helpful. But it occurs our immune system is we’re very focused on the physical I don’t see things in just physical. Our immune system is body but it’s also mind and and you know, if I do say it’s spirit as well. So when we’re looking at our internal millieu, we’re looking at body, mind and spirit. Because, you know, having an interest in mind body medicine, I I realize how these things work. So terrain theory is let’s get this right so that we are less susceptible to that. And then, you know, there’s a further question which maybe I shouldn’t mention, but but I will that is the germ actually causing the illness or is it coming in to help mop up the damage? Now that’s a very controversial statement, and there have been people who’ve been excommunicated that seriously Yeah. Louis Pasteur, allegedly saying on his deathbed.

Molly Knight 44:49
Hmm, it wasn’t the germ, it was the terrain. Yeah. Sorry, keeps breaking up. I’m not sure why it’s doing this.

Dr Catherine Fyans 44:57
Well, what, you know, the whole of Western medicine is very much based on the germ theory.

Yes. And always … be too happy to question that for a number of reasons. But you know, why not? It’s good to question things because a lot of what was held sacrosanct in science was later proven to be completely incorrect. So why can’t we do that now? I’m just saying, Look at, look at pros and cons. And then the other thing is, we also have the psychological susceptibility. I am normally very fit and healthy. But I had a respiratory illness quite a nasty one, you know, a couple of years ago. And I know, in my system, I had a certain type and a certain level of stress. That made me vulnerable to getting that to stop me in my tracks. And this is not a commonly held idea and a lot of people would think what was she talking about? Yeah. Some people and you know the other thing about illness and of course we want people to be you know, as healthy as they can be and live as long and productive life as they can. But illness is not always the enemy It is sometimes the teacher but we don’t look at it that way.

Molly Knight 46:21
Now we don’t we, we, we try to avoid it at all costs, and yet often it’s the healer, the bug or the the illness is a way the body starts to heal. And it’s not a common way that medicine looks at things.

Dr Catherine Fyans 46:37
Yes, I’m not saying we need to have that or have to have that but it’s sometimes away and we’re in my situation. I had some cues. I was going down a track that wasn’t, you know, in alignment, let’s say. And, you know, I know retrospect, this was to stop me in my tracks. And I have to go through a period of convalescence and you know, I learned a lot through that period. It was a great learning time for me difficult though it was. So I’m not saying people need to be unwell, but I’m saying there there is a different side to it.. And, you know, there’s this whole emphasis on, we can never heal, we will sacrifice anything to make sure we don’t get ill. And that was certainly don’t die. And I don’t think life works that way. And I think it’s a total misconception and no one can ensure someone else’s safety. And on that note, you know, if we were so concerned, why do we drive a car? Why do people smoke? Why is cigarettes still being sold? And this is not to have a go at smokers? Not at all. But you know, they’re inconsistent.

Molly Knight 47:42
Yes, absolutely. If it’s all about health and keeping people healthy. We have to have a broader look at what’s going on, don’t we?

Dr Catherine Fyans 47:51
Yes, I mean, if we’re just focused on this one area, and it’s all about the virus and don’t look at the whole, you know, spectrum of health and wellness. It’s very unbalanced. And we know a lot of people are not going to their doctors to have the normal tests and checks because they’re to scared a lot of them. A lot of doctors are not in their offices anyway and can’t properly examine.

Molly Knight 48:14
Yeah, and a lot of them are doing zoom consults.

Dr Catherine Fyans 48:18
Yeah, I’m very old school. I actually like to have the patient in front of me.

Molly Knight 48:23
Well, on that note, where do you practice someone’s asked?

Dr Catherine Fyans 48:28
It’s in flux at the moment, as I said, I came back from overseas and I’m changing so it’s probably best. Don’t advertise myself. Thanks for the question.

Molly Knight 48:37
Well, we could always check out your web page, you do have a web page. Um, okay, so the, I guess what I’m hearing is that one, no, we’re not being told everything that we can do to help ourselves. Only a few of what external things that we feel will protect us, but in fact, probably isn’t protecting us very well at all. And the things that really will sustain our immune system and our health is not being mentioned.

Dr Catherine Fyans 49:17
No worries. It’s also intriguing On that note, I’m not allowed to sit on the beach for 10 minutes to get some sun for my vitamin D. And not that we want to in winter I’m on it. But that that’s just a simple thing that is very helpful. Now, for some reason. That’s not allowed in Victoria anyway, right now, we can’t actually some back. And you know, I think we can social distance on the beach as much as we can in bonding. So the liquor store,

Molly Knight 49:45
hmm. The essential.

Dr Catherine Fyans 49:49
So, you know, there are those inconsistencies. And, you know, Molly, I also think quality of life is important. It’s not just about you know, we’re not allowed to say that but quality of life is important. And as I’ve seen before, there’s two camps, I will do anything for my survival. Lock me up, take this freedom, take that. And some people are happy to live like that the other group at the other end of the spectrum and there’s a whole lot of people in between saying, No, I will do anything for my freedom. This is what the mask issue is about. It’s not

Molly Knight 50:28
it’s broken, breaking up again, How

Dr Catherine Fyans 50:32
interesting. It is when I talked about this before.

Molly Knight 50:35
I know, I know, it’s funny how things break up when you’re saying something pretty amazing. Okay, so to finish up, Catherine, how important and I think it’s important but I really like your perspective on it is the integration of what we physically do. With what we think about. So how do we overcome all the fear? Because people are enormously fearful? As you say, they’ll do anything. Yes. not feel that fear.

Dr Catherine Fyans 51:16
Yeah. Now anxiety is very uncomfortable. It’s not a pleasant state to be in. And we know it lowers our immune system, we’re not meant to be in that sustained fear for months. It’s not designed that way. You know, we’re also very resilient so we can I don’t want people to be afraid of the fear, if you know what I mean, we can bounce back given the right circumstances.

Molly Knight 51:34

Dr Catherine Fyans 51:37

Molly Knight 51:38
What’s a couple of suggestions that you can make,

Dr Catherine Fyans 51:43
What can I suggest that we can actually do? Yeah, there’s a nerve called the vagal nerve. And we haven’t talked much about the autonomic nervous system, but we know that the sympathetic system is puts us into fight or flight to cope with challenges. The other side of the autonomic nervous system of parasympathetic nervous system is for rest, repair, recovery, and maintenance of our organs and physiological systems, ie we need it for health to keep the body in homeostasis. So what we’re finding now is a real imbalance of sympathetic nervous system for many people, not all, overdrive, and the parasympathetic is underactive, we need that to come up to maintain some balance and for our system for the sake of homeostasis, and a big part of the parasympathetic nervous system is the vagal nerve. But then we we hear a lot about the vagal nerve now. And there are methods to help calm or let’s say tone the vagal nerve which will have performances and also help our immune system so that includes things like the problem here, Molly is a lot of things we would normally do to kind of calm down we can’t do it. We can’t go the movies, we can’t have dinner with family. We can’t go to cafes with friends. We, we have to wear a mask if we go outside, but the things we can do, and you know things like meditation, mindfulness, definitely.

Molly Knight 53:25
Okay, we’re frozen again. So meditate. Yes.

Dr Catherine Fyans 53:32
Yeah. Meditation, mindfulness.

Molly Knight 53:35
Mindfulness. Yep. Yeah. Yeah, and positive thinking, you know, maybe think about something other than the virus for a while,

Dr Catherine Fyans 53:45
you know, I would say turn off the mainstream media.

Molly Knight 53:48
Yep. Agree.

Dr Catherine Fyans 53:52
It’s alarming. I don’t watch it but if I accidentally turned onto it, it’s like, oh my goodness, you know, 500 and something more cases in Victoria, then I broke it down and thought. Oh, it’s actually not so bad. Maybe we need to hear the good news that most people recover from this very well hardly affects young people, they will always be exceptions to the rule or someone will always know a young person but its had very little affect on people, but it’s turned their lives around. I’m very concerned about that group, particularly the teenagers. They need to be out with your friends socializing. So we need to hear good news. You know, the crises have a meaning crises are to break down old ways of being and old structures that do not serve us well. And it’s messy and it’s chaotic. But there is the potential for a better way to come out of it and I hope and pray that will be the case. So we need to find some meaning from our experiences and many people have heard of Viktor Frankl who, you know, he was in the he lived through the Holocaust and he was in a ghetto, but he got through it. He found some meaning he found some mean what does it mean? How can we increase our wisdom, our compassion, our empathy? You know, gratitude. That is one of the good things to calm us down and increase the tone of the vagal nerve in the parasympathetic system. Gratitude, no matter how dark things are, you know, there’s always something good there’s always a silver lining something good that comes out of these situations, crises have a function, they’re deeply uncomfortable, but there’s always a potential for good things. We, you know, we’re going through a massive dark night of the soul then collectively and individually and it’s a big deal. It’s a big deal. This is this is hard.

Molly Knight 55:45
Yes, it’s very hard. It is very hard.

Dr Catherine Fyans 55:48
Find ways to bond with people like you know if we can’t see them. That is definitely preferred. But you know, get onto some meetup groups hey, we need human contact. That’s essential


Molly Knight 56:08
inspirational books is that what you were going to say, Catherine, it’s frozen again?

Dr Catherine Fyans 56:14
inspirational literature. And look at what humanity has been through. But this is on a much more global scale. But you know, people have been through huge challenges and dramas and we want that to make us more courageous, not fear based and constricted and separated and fighting each other even during wars people on the same side, they bonded together. The pressure actually went down in many of them and this has not happening here.

Molly Knight 56:43
Quite the opposite, isn’t it? really what’s happening is there’s more division and almost hatred building.

Dr Catherine Fyans 56:50
Yeah, so we’ll only survive this if we come together as a community. And you know, part of my concern about the isolation separation is it’s making it harder

Molly Knight 57:03
Okay, so on that note, I thank you for joining us, I think some really good suggestions as in the positive things, getting to a point where people actually, perhaps question what’s happening and look at a bit of a broader picture and how they can make things work for them. I guess I don’t know what else you can do in a situation where everyone’s locked down, except question it, question question, question, because this is not great.

Dr Catherine Fyans 57:48
It’s a human right to question everything. And I believe it’s everyone’s right any informed capable adult You have to choose what is right for them and what they put in our bodies, that is a human right, we have variously handed over for the illusion of safety, no one can promise us that we can only get that. But that’s true. So I’ll give up any freedom so you can save me with whatever. It’s a total illusion.

Molly Knight 58:20
It is an illusion and it’s it’s an easy out because it means you’re not responsible, somebody else is going to fix it for you

Dr Catherine Fyans 58:29

Molly Knight 58:30
And we have to change that we have to change that mentality.

Dr Catherine Fyans 58:33
I totally will, you know, was mentioned is basically edits, it comes back to the older problem, reaction solution model, you know, you have a problem or you’re going to get a problem or your reaction, sometimes anger, mainly fear and solution, it will give you something to get rid of the problem. You know, I think it’s good to look at other models and I think its good to question things, why not?

Molly Knight 59:03
Well, isn’t that the basis of science? Question? Learn. Change where necessary?

Dr Catherine Fyans 59:09
Exactly. Well, change is happening. We’re in it. As I say, can just we need to be very careful of the new the new normal, we’re going to agree to because there might be no turn.

Molly Knight 59:26
Yes, I agree with you there. If we don’t stand up now and ask the why’s and get some honest answers. Then tomorrow might not be as pretty as yesterday was.

Dr Catherine Fyans 59:42

Molly Knight 59:44
All right, Catherine, on that note, we will wrap this up and I thank you very, very much for talking with us tonight.

Dr Catherine Fyans 59:51
My pleasure.

Molly Knight 59:53
I’ve learned a lot and I thank you for that. And I hope everyone out there has, has gained as much as I have. So thank you. Thank you very much for joining us Catherine

Dr Catherine Fyans 1:00:05
Its been my pleasure.

Molly Knight 1:00:05
Thank you. Good night. Good night, everyone. Thank you for joining us and God bless and safe journey for those in Victoria.

Dr Catherine Fyans 1:00:17
Yeah, we’re doing it tough.

Molly Knight 1:00:20
I’ll say it’s very difficult to do.

Dr Catherine Fyans 1:00:24
Thank you, good night.

Molly Knight 1:00:24
Good night. Good night.

Serene Teffaha, a Victorian solicitor, joined Molly Knight on 23rd July 2020 for a wide-ranging discussion on the Government restrictions across Australia.

Some of the key points discussed were:

  • The State of Emergency – did the Government meet the requirements to declare one?
  • BioSecurity Act 2015 – can it be used to issue mandates across an entire population?
  • Next steps – launching a class action against the Government
  • Class actions for the unlawful detainment of public housing residents and mandatory flu vaccinations
  • Complaint against AHPRA for muzzling scientific discussion on the health risks associated with vaccination


Click on the image below to view the interview:

Read the transcript below:

Molly Knight 0:00
And civil litigation. She’s interested in government administration and consistency of legislation. While she’s had limited experience in running class actions, she’s seen the need, which hasn’t been filled by other law firms who’ve chosen to remain silent during these times to do something about what she sees as illegitimate use of legislative powers by the states and territories during these states and mergency powers. Welcome Serene.` Thank you so much for joining us tonight.

Serene Teffaha 0:33
Thank you for having me. Wow what a beautiful Introduction.

Molly Knight 0:41
I’m so excited to have you here because I know some of the work you’re doing is going to be I believe, some of the most valuable work that we’ve seen in our history. And it’s so it’s awesome that you’ve stepped up when so many won’t. So, let’s start, let’s kick right off tonight we’ll start off talking about the state of emergency in Victoria. Do you think has the government acted in accordance with the law when declaring this state of emergency? And I wanted to know what conditions or situations like the points that a government body would have, they have to tick these off, that would lead to having such a dramatic and, and desperate situation, the response that basically closes everything thing down. So what gives a government the right to call a state of emergency?

Serene Teffaha 1:39
I think it’s really important to understand what public health risk is and and link it to a state of emergency power. So a state of emergency powers when they can be declared as well and by who, and who has the original, I guess? autonomy or decision making in terms of national public health risks that would affect the whole country. It’s important to understand the legislative framework under which this works as well. What’s important to understand here is that Australia has a number of legislative frameworks. There is the Commonwealth or the federal framework of managing states of emergencies and public health risks. And that sits within the biosecurity act on the national level. And that’s an act that came in 2015. That piece of legislation, I would say is a good piece of legislation. It’s been very well thought out in terms of how to roll out and when to declare a state of emergency and I will come back to that in a short bit. The other layer that operates is the states and the territories powers as well. And that the Federal legislature is not carving out the states and the territories from having a say in relation to public health issues. And those are usually captured in the respective public health acts and emergency acts that operate on the under the jurisdiction of the relevant states and territories. Now, those acts unfortunately, have come much earlier. Okay, so each of the states and terrorists have had acts, some of them in 1970s 80s 90s to early 2000s. And unfortunately, those acts when you read them holistically, because they’ve had so many different amendments happen to them throughout the years, they can read in almost in conflict with them with themselves. Okay. But what the biosecurity act did when it came in, on the federal level, it actually created a precedent in itself means that all the states and territories when it comes to health risks and (?) they have to work, they can’t be inconsistent with the BioSecurity Act. So, the biosecurity act that is the following that (?) the Health Minister that sits on the federal level and the and the Governor General must declare the emergency and do a declaration order. Now that was made under Section 475 of the biosecurity Act and the declaration order for the state of emergency creates a priority in the next Federal Minister okay. On on the on the higher level and the rules must be applied 100% with no conflict to the Biosecurity Act. Okay, now I’ll explain when a state of emergency can occur. So what the Biosecurity Act says under sections 475 that a the Governor General may declare that a human biosecurity emergency exists if the health minister is satisfied that a listed human disease is posing a severe and immediate threat, or it’s causing harm to human health on a nationally significant scale. They’re actually very powerful words and very serious on a national significance scale. And the declaration is necessary to prevent or control the, obviously the emergence of the listed human disease into the Australian territory and the emergence and establishment of the spread of that disease. So you can see that the criteria is extremely high. And so the questions have to be is well when is a disease such that it poses, when can you classify it as posing a serious threat of harm, OK, and that is on a national significant scale. What the Biosecurity Act also says you can’t bring a risk to zero. So don’t try to do that. That is not a realistic thing to do, OK, when realistic is managing it, so it’s no longer a significant health risk. So on the 18th of March, it was determined, obviously in response to the global issue for a novel coronavirus that the uncertainties related to it would have probably necessitated, let’s say a declaration of an emergency. But we need to now assess four, five months on what happened and what we have learned. And therefore that assessment has to come through with our learnings. And we need to ask well, is it still a nationally significant risk. What do we know about this virus? Do we know how many people are asymptomatic? What are the percentages, what are the likely comorbidity? What is the likely risk of people dying with comorbidity of other diseases? What are the age groups? And what is the causal fatality rate? Now, what is the causal fatality, right? The causal fatality rate is actually an attainment of the percentage of those who die from diagnosed cases. Okay. So we need to understand diagnosis, and we need to understand how things are being diagnosed as well. We need to look at testing, we need to look at controversies around that. We need to look at uncertainties around that and then determine that. Now what has been determined last time I checked is the causal fatality rate in Australia is 1.38%. That’s pretty close to zero. Okay? So would a 1.38% causal fatality rate satisfy the the terms of the legislation. Okay, this is a question. I’m not answering these questions. I’m just saying this is the process under which we need to start to turn our attention. And what is really important here is that how do these powers operate? Okay, how do they operate? What can the Health Minister do and what he can’t and what has happened here is that instead of the health minister, doing appropriate requirements and setting them on the federal level, so that the states and territories follows. They just outsourced it all to the states and the territories. Okay? And the states and territories are starting to act in a very ad hoc way against what the Biosecurity Act says and in fact, against some of what their own legislation says and I will give an example. I will give a number of examples What the Biosecurity Act calls for you can set requirements that impact a group of people when it comes to the following aspects. And I will just get that when it comes true. I’ll get this I’ve got so many notes here

Molly Knight 9:23
I can imagine

Serene Teffaha 9:26
(???) human biosecurity emergency period This is section 477. The Health Minister may determine a requirement he or she is satisfied to prevent or control the entry of the disease okay. And what it is these requirements are limited to this. The requirements that apply to persons goods conveyances when entering or leaving a specified place with in regards to the movement of persons or goods and the restriction in terms of that movement and evacuation. That means you can only give directions on a group of people only in relation to very general things like close of business or when to open, travelling export import of goods, planes coming and going, ships leaving and coming. Okay. You can do that on a group of people usually issuing directives on a general thing. But the Bio Security Act prevents from telling a group of people to do certain things like masking, like isolating, like detaining, like vaccinating, like treatment, unless you issue an individual with the appropriate bio security control order. That means you can’t just go to a group of people and tell them all of you here. We don’t care. We’re not going to look at the details. of each of your situation. You all got to be vaccinated, all of you here go to wear some masks. All of you here have to be detained and all of you here have to be isolated No, no, no, that is a big no no under the biosecurity act, what you must do is follow very strict processes that are set to ensure the preservation of human rights and to ensure that the only basis under which you can issue a bio security control order are the following. And this is section 60 of the biosecurity control the biosecurity act so, I will now talk to you about what a biosecurity order what it must consist of, okay.

Imposing a human bio security control order on an individual that only can be done by a Chief Human Bio Security officer, a human bio security officer or a Bio Security Officer. Now, what you have to do, a human bio security control order may be imposed on an individual, only if the officer is satisfied of the following, the individual has one or more signs or symptoms of a listed human disease, or the individual has been exposed to a listed human disease or another individual who has one or more signs of symptoms. That means you can’t just go to anyone and say, Hey, you, you have to be vaccinated or you you need to be isolated. You need to show that that individual is either themselves symptomatic of that disease, or you need to show the contact of who the named name naming the person as to who they were contacted with who has the listed disease or the symptoms of the disease. And this is the criteria that is set under Section 61 of the of the biosecurity act meaning when you issuing a bio security control order, you need to tell the person the following, you need to tell them the ground under which you are actually ordering or imposing them to do something or not do something. And you need to list the signs and the symptoms that they’re suffering of the listed human disease. So unless you’re actually symptomatic, you can’t they can’t do anything to you. Okay? Because it’s all about prevention of risk, you have to show that you’re an infectious risk, or that you’re at risk of infection, okay, a perfectly healthy person who is not symptomatic, you can’t just come and tell them to do something and tell them on a group level, okay? You have to go to them individually, then what you need to say you need to give them a unique identifier. You need to tell them exactly who they were contacted with the name of the person that also has the signs and the symptoms. That means you can’t just say oh, we think that you’re exposed. We’re suspicious that you might be. No, that’s not how the law works. You have to actually face them individually and name them. And very importantly, you have to give them the right of review. You have to give them the right of reviewing that decision to issue a bio security control order to either ask you to be masked, to be vaccinated, to be treated, to be isolated, to be detained, to be to be diagnosed, to be medically tested, everything even the testing you if you want or require someone to do testing, you have to give them all of these requirements through a bio security control order. Now, some states and territories have reflected that in the in their respective public health acts but they not following it. Victoria has section 117 and it says you have to issue the person a public health order and they’re not following their laws. They’re not following their laws and telling the people individually if they’re a particular risk you Don’t just go to a perfectly healthy person, and then say to them, oh, as a group, I’m not even concerned about your personal details, all of you just do that. Okay? And you can’t do that, particularly in an emergency powers. Why? Because otherwise, it’ll go crazy. And I’m going to give an example how things have gone out of control and in fact, created more of a virus risk. So what happened in the detention towers, let’s look at what happened in the detention towers and apply the biosecurity act to it. Okay, versus how they handled the crisis in a way that is completely breaching their own laws and breaching the laws of the Federal legislator. They identified originally about 23 to about 50 cases. I’ve tried to get the exact numbers but I believe it was 23 who tested positive now I’ll come back to the problem with testing in just a little bit. Okay.

Assuming that these tests are reliable for one minute, let’s assume they are, but we’ll come back to that later and we’ll break that one apart as well. Okay? But let’s assume that these tests are positive, okay, you got 23 people tested positive out of 3000 or that you’ve located that that you’ve known that the rest are tested, but you know that you’ve tested in this 23 here who are positive if you genuinely believe that these people are symptomatic. Now, by the way, a lot of them weren’t symptomatic. Okay, so they tested positive but weren’t symptomatic, but let’s assume they were, which they weren’t, but let’s assume Okay, let’s assume you’ve got 23 positive, you’ve got reliable tests and 23 who are symptomatic. Do you then lock these people up with the other 3000 people who potentially many of them can be healthy, and lock them up in the one home confined in the small space and then bring to them 500 cops, and then bring to them almost up to another thousand DHS staff in a very confined space where the whole notion is not to spread this virus bringing people who are not trained, okay? And bring in and detain them, without them actually being issued anything under the law to tell them that where they have to be, what what risks they are, what rights of review they have. You’ve done nothing of that. And they’ve said “They can do that, its an emergency you can do whatever you want apparently, its an emergency” But let’s see what happened here. What happened here is that the the police and the DHS who were untrained started to leave biosecurity hazard waste everywhere. It was coming out of the bins. It wasn’t wrapped and double binned. Okay. It was willy nilly the food that was delivered, people were delivering it without gloves, some without masks. Some were wearing the PPE suits, some were not they were putting the food next to the rubbish bins They were delivering food to people at 10pm with leaking food that is not properly prepared by chefs who have occupational health and safety training. So yes, we have processes for the purpose of us not going mad because we have processes under the law that create the right balance between human rights and the need to create proper safety checks. Okay, so the law if it was applied the biosecurity Control Act and the biosecurity Act and the public health and mental well being act in Victoria, truly holistically being applied, we would not be applying it in an ad hoc, crazy fashion where we’re exacerbating risks rather than containing risks. Mm hmm. Okay. And that’s why we have law we have law because it gives us process process is extremely important when there’s an emergency See, that’s the whole point of a process. You use the process when there’s an emergency, You don’t say, Oh, yeah, if there was no emergency, we would use the processes. But because there’s an emergency, everything goes out the window. An unfortunately, that’s not how the law works. You need to make a proper assessment of the individuals, if you felt that those individuals were at risk and were symptomatic, you could have isolate, you can have given them an individual order, told them to isolate somewhere else, provided their pay and accommodation and provided them with the appropriate respectful manner in which you treat them. Okay? And I’m not saying don’t do that, I’m saying do it properly. But don’t go in and isolate and detain, like a bunch of criminals, 3,000 individuals who are the most vulnerable people in our society and call it lawful. Okay, that’s not lawful. And that is not risk mitigation. And what I have to say here is I’m appalled by the medical community. I’m appalled, because they all like, oh, some of them are like, oh, all the doctors are against you? No, they’re not. I’ve got 150 doctors and nurses that I’m representing. Okay? I’m connected to so many experts internationally and locally, who are also saying this is wrong. But you’ve got the brainwashed, almost no, I’m not going to listen to you serene. I’m not going to listen to what are you? Are you an expert or not? I’m not holding myself out to be an expert. I know my law. I’m a lawyer, and that’s the only expertise I hold. But what I do know and I’m also an accredited nutritionist as well, okay. But, you know, I’m not flaunting that or creating an expertise in that. But what I am saying is I’ve got my logic, I’ve got my law, I’ve got my research, I’ve got my brain. And as a lawyer, I’m able to research and present the arguments and get the experts that do know who actually can support these arguments. This is no consensus. There is no consensus on this, okay? And people have to understand that there is no consensus on these issues. Okay? These issues are not like, oh, all of a sudden you disagree with government, therefore you’re not scientific, Since when was government the authority of science? Since when does government own science and scientific opinion, and this is the danger that we’re speaking of here. This is an extremely dangerous precedent. And we have the laws to support us. We have a scheme of human rights that has been introduced in this nation. If we look at this nation purely from what is written in the provisions in the common law in our Constitution in our laws, you would think that we’re living in the most amazing, constitutionally right country in this world. But we shouldn’t be afraid. You know, there’s the fear and there’s the hatred and the hatred I’ll come back to testing in this just a second. Let you speak.

Molly Knight 22:06
Well given what’s happened with the state of emergency in these towers, where is it right now with these people? Are they out and about or they have they done their time?

Serene Teffaha 22:21
Well, I’m representing the Melbourne public tenant authority. It was put together as a response to the lack of representation, consolidated representation for the residents. There’s almost 3,000 residents so you can imagine it’s a big community and very multicultural OK.. The MPTA was set up by a wonderful man who is very concerned for his community, okay, and he set it up with a view of consolidating the residents. He reached out to me, and I was so happy to to get his call, you know, and he said, Serene, we need representation. Okay, we need to consolidate this, because it appears that the government thinks it’s a divide and conquer thing and it’s very easy to, you know, because there’s a lot of vulnerable people in that community. You know, a lot of vulnerable people who just don’t don’t want the cameras on them. You know, the whole world was looking at them, they were just please leave us alone. They don’t want to, you know, they was so compliant. No kidding. They are just lovely people. I mean, if this happened down at Frankston I don’t know what would happen there. People want to sit down and go Yeah right. But you know, these people are mannered these people have have have kindness and suffered and all they want is to be respected, and they were treated with disrespect. Okay, so he reached out to me, and I’m representing them now and I’m and we’re urging as many residents to obviously have membership under the MPTA. Okay, with there’s a lot of residents that now have joined, okay. And I’m happy with the representation and he’s working really hard to garner and collect as many of the residents as possible. Okay. And I urge the residents if they’re listening to this to also join MPTA Okay, because with one voice we can actually raise the concerns and I have communicated to the Chief Health Officer, the Deputy Chief Health Officer, Daniel Andrews, and `the Chief of Police and I set out to them how unlawful their actions are. Okay, now they’ve assigned it to the lawyers, and the lawyers are looking at it. So let’s see what happens.

Molly Knight 24:33
Yes, watch this space.

Serene Teffaha 24:35
Yeah, I hope they look at it very carefully, because I’m not going away. Okay. And this is the message they are going to be hearing during this hour, I’m not going away. Okay. This is not going away. Okay. We have powerful arguments here. And these people have been treated abominably ill, you know, abominably ill and some of the worst treatment that I have seen. Okay and ridiculous to bring in police under the law. You can’t you can’t under the biosecurity act you can’t use force the police are absolutely the last resort for enforcement, you have to be issued the bio security control order and then you have to be issued an enforcement order. And only if you breach it, then you can bring the police. You can bring in 500 cops overnight, and expect people to be okay with that.

Yeah. Do you have any inkling as to why it was done like this Serene?

Oh, I don’t know. But it sounds to me like, I don’t know. I don’t know who does it power trip bullies. I mean, you know, I work with a lot of bullies every day. I fight bullies every day. You know, and this is another thing. People are so conditioned to think that, you know, bureaucracies are there to love them and help them. And it’s cognitive dissonance when you actually realize that bureaucracies are composed of individuals. And the systems allow people who are power trippers to rise through the chain. We have massive problem in this country we have massive problem with family violence. We have massive problem with pedophilia, let’s call it out the big mammoth in the room. The big mammoth in the room. pedophilia is the biggest problem in this country, the biggest virus in this country. Okay. And when we talk about issues that are impacting us people think, Oh, yeah, let’s trust the bureaucrats implicitly. A lot of these bureaucracies are protecting perpetrators and protecting themselves and protecting their own interests and are aligning themselves with private companies and corporate interests. So people have cognitive dissonance No, no, we must trust government. Okay, but when you say, Well, hold on, why are they doing things that are so illogical? Because every day I deal with the illogical every day I deal with bureaucracies that do very awful things to people, okay? And people are so disillusioned to believe. You know that bureaucracy composed by individuals are driven by power tripping and hurting others. It’s very uncomfortable for us to believe that some people enjoy a power trip. Okay, and I’m not saying, I’m not saying here, the individual medical doctors and there’s so many of them that are totally amazing. Okay, but as an establishment and as a overarching, private organization that has a lot of other benefits that are coming into it. Okay, it could create brainwashing and it can create a reality that is not true. Yeah. And so we’ll come back to testing if that’s okay.

Molly Knight 27:35
Dnefinitely yes, please.

Serene Teffaha 27:41
So one of the criteria in the act is obviously determining signs and symptoms, okay, and determining infectious disease status. Okay. The RTPCR tests or the nucleic acid tests as they’re called. Now, very interestingly, apart from the fact that the government itself on its own website, TGA Therapeutic Goods Administrators, okay, and the government Department of Health itself talks about the unreliability of these tests in ascertaining the infectious disease status of someone. Oh reliability hr something is 80% its pretty alright. When we’re talking about those percentage, unless they’re really close up high, you’ll create false positives if they don’t have high sense of accuracy, especially in a pool that has a causal fatality rate that is low. So yeah, every percentage counts. Did you talk to people Oh, it’s alright its pretty close its what we’ve got, you know, well, the law doesn’t work like that people right now, what is also very critical today, Dr. Sin Hang Lee peer reviewed published paper that came out today. International Journal of Geriatrics and, and rehabilitation. It came out today the paper, the current, this is the this is the result of the paper The current nucleic acid tests that test for SARS cov 2 generate 30% false positives and 20% false negatives. That means up to 50% wrong. That’s not a good accuracy. Okay, that’s a peer reviewed paper. Okay, so what does that mean? Okay. What that means is that you’re using RT PCR tests that are highly unreliable. They’re not tests that should be wholly relied upon on diagnosis, what the media and what the government and the chief Health Officers is saying is a positive test is an infection. And that’s an outrage. That is an outrage and in a court of law that would be thrown out in a court of law that would be thrown out that argument because lobbyists are usually the ones who form arguments, not doctors, and no offense to doctors. Okay, but it will be thrown out Okay with a 30% false positives and 20 percent false negatives unreliably. But I’ll tell you what they’re reliable for. The Australian government has a very interesting practice. And that is it sets up internal bodies to question itself. And that’s what I love about this country is that you’ve got a lot of buddies that are looking at it and itself to the Australian Government has this body to look at itself and that body so they’ve got family court problems, and they know the judges are getting it all wrong and they know that there’s a hellhole there in the family court, they get the Australian Law Reform Commission to come in. And the Australian Law Reform Commission looks at itself and says, yeah, we think the family court should be abolished. This is the body that is looking at itself, okay. Similarly here, we have a body called the Australian Strategic Policy Institute, and the Australian Strategic Policy Institute looks at contracts And looks at security risks for this country. And you know what they’ve produced. I’ll tell you what they produce. What they produce is a report to identify that the 10 million RT PCR tests that we got from Chinese company called Beijing Genomics Institute is actually doing a fantastic job of DNA profiling. For the Chinese government. They’re actually building a police-run DNA database. And I’ve got all the reports. They’re all online. The Australian Strategic Policy Institute warned the government of the security risk of using the RT PCR tests to 10 million of them they bought in, for the fact that the BGI is related very strongly to companies that are engaging in DNA dragnets profiling DNA. That’s right. RT PCR tests. Not so reliable for COVID-19 but they’re pretty good at getting your DNA information. Now, . I didn’t say this, you know, people get angry. Oh, what do you mean you’re a conspiracy theorist? I’ll give you the reports. I didn’t say it, they said it No-one can come after me. They said it. What are the implications? I don’t know. But I’m not the one identifying the security risk. Their own government body that is identifying the security risk. And what does the government say to the government government’s saying to the government, Hey, guys, something’s not quite right here. And the government goes nah she’ll be right. She’ll be right. Let’s not talk about this DNA dragnet (???) I didn’t say they said it.

Molly Knight 32:55
Okay. Yeah. So Serene. What can we do? All right, what can we do as individuals?

Serene Teffaha 33:03
Yeah, so what’s really important I just want to before saying what can we do i do want to talk about very importantly as well that people understand where they can go to for the act, okay. Okay. Yep, bio security access via security control orders and the type of things that that need to be done on an individual level that means what are the what are the things they can do to you require you to do but they have to issue you a biosecurity control order and identify your infectious disease risk, okay? before so they need to do that first and identify and issue you the bio security control order with all the requirements and the review rights. Okay. These are some of the things things to do with risk minimization. This is section 88, including using a specified clothing or equipment. So masks, you can’t just go tell a group of people wear masks You need to go specifically. So you say if you’re in the hospital and you’re a healthcare worker, you need to wear masks of a medical grade and ensure you take breaks at particular spaces so that you’re not suffocating from wearing a mask all the time. If for example, they say particularly individuals, okay, if they work in specific spaces that are extremely congested, maybe they can tell them to wear the mask, okay but telling the whole community to wear a mask all the time when you’re out or providing some exemptions that are very strict or restrictive, is not helpful mitigation of risk. And that’s in their own provision, section 88 of the biosecurity act, okay, section 91, requiring body samples, the diagnosis, you need to also be issued bio security control order you can’t just be asked to be tested. You need to actually be identified as a risk. Okay? signs and symptoms now, what they’ve done here very very maliciously, is that they said, Oh, if you’re asymptomatic, you can actually infect. We know from a lot of studies that have been done that that’s very rare that’s always qualified as very rare. You do not form policy on things that are very rare. That is not how public health policy is formed. And that’s very disingenuous. And who has come up repeatedly, people coming up from scientists from who going yeah, that’s not gonna happen. And the next day who’s like no, no, ignore that person. Sorry, they’re being so contradictory, no kidding.And they go on the record saying it. Now managing contacts asking for contacts. Okay, you got to be issued by security control order, section 86 contacting an officer with a health status, section 87 restrictive behavior. If they’re telling you to do certain things on an individual level, you have to be identified as a risk, okay? undergoing an examination or a test. Now we’ve got a New South Wales people are randomly being chosen for a mandatory test. You can’t do that. You can’t just pluck people out of a hat and go, Oh, it’s your lucky day. Right? Yeah. Infectious risk status first. Okay. You don’t just send here a letter and say Dear Jo. It’s your turn. You’ve been plucked from a box. Lucky you It’s your turn to be tested. Yeah, no, no, that’s not how it works. Okay. And everything else, decontamination risks, receiving a medication, appropriate medical or other standards to be applied and most importantly, no use of force. No use of force. Okay, that’s under the biosecurity act. Where’s our states and territories in all of this? Where’s our Attorney General’s in all of this? Where’s the Governor General? Where’s the federal Health Minister? Where are they in this equation? Nowhere to be seen. Or alternatively endorsing these actions? Well, I think it’s good for them to go and have a read about what their roles are under the legislature. Oh yeah, that’s my role, I didn’t realise that I’m the Health Minister, you know,

Molly Knight 37:21
I Yes, yeah. Okay, so

Serene Teffaha 37:25
What can we do? I’m telling you what we need to do. I’ve been looking at these and racking my brain from every angle. I’m doing a vaccine class action for the influenza mandate. So they brought in that you have to be vaccined with the flu to see your loved one or access your job. Now they said that that’s because it reduces hospitalizations and get this. There’s absolutely no evidence of that. The Cochrane Review is very clear. The hospitalization links to influenza vaccine is just non existent. The stats don’t exist on that one, I’m afraid. There are stats hat’s okay. And I’ll tell you what else is very interesting. Because I look again at their information, you know, people get angry. I’m psyching their information and they’re like oh, you’re a keyboard warrior. No, I’m not. I’m a researcher. I’m a I’m a lawyer. That’s what we do where we are keyboard warriors. True. We research everything. Okay? And that’s a good lawyer who does that. Okay. And their own statistics on influenza this year shows it’s almost close to zero. Deaths. Okay. 36. I think that the last time I checked, but get this their own records say it and qualify it with a very strong waiver, which says, you cannot trust those statistics because of COVID testing.They are saying this themselves, its not me saying it, its them saying it. They’re saying you can’t trust those statistics because you can’t trust them, because the reality is that conflated the cases could be conflated. What we see is actually influenza could be COVID and what is COVID could be influenza until in the really low latest symptomatic, when you show more on the later levels, that it could display differently. Okay. But in terms of the statistics and the reporting, what may actually be reported as COVID is actually influenza. And they recognize that now it’s no secret let’s look at all the graphs. Yeah, let’s not let’s not forget we’re in winter in Victoria, we’re in winter. And get this if you go and look at all the stats from all the previous years, guess what? ICU and hospitalizations are very high in the season. This is not a surprise. We’re in winter, vitamin D levels go low. We’re more likely to contract things okay? And and and hospitalizations in ICU’s you will fill up. Okay? And we’ve got the stats to show the comparatives of the last year, why are we going? Oh my god, ICU there’s 12 or 20, we’re in dire straits. Actually three years ago It was triple that amount it was 1,100 people that died, correct? Yes. Why don’t we all this dramatization coming back to the definitions? What’s the significant risk? And I’m not saying this the stats are. I’m not the one making this up. Okay? The stats are there to show comparatives and come up with appropriate modeling and and do appropriate reactions. So, I’m doing that. And I did that initially, because I was very concerned about the way that they brought the aged care directives very quickly. But the more that I’m looking at this now that I realized that I’m working on that vaccine class action but the real and people say, Oh, is this anti-vax? Just an anti-vax You know, this is not an anti-vax issue. This is about human rights. This is about our rights to to be defined as what a risk is, if we know that influenza is not a large risk this year, and it’s been conflated with COVID, we need to apply it appropriately. There are risks with with the fact that there are serious adverse reactions and people should have this as a recommendation not a compulsion, or a requirement. We know under the law, you can’t require it unless it’s a biosecurity control order, or public health order. Okay. So this is about process. It’s not about vaccine. Not all vaccines are the same. Let’s get that out of our heads. Just because something called is a vaccine doesn’t mean that all medicines are the same or all vaccines are the same. They have different risks. And we have to be logical about that. I’m not the one making this up. The experts are saying this, their own data is saying it. Okay. So what I realized is we need to go more. My plan now and I’m getting more help. And I’m getting more people on board that we need to look at a class action for every citizen in this country. Class action in relation to businesses being shut down and the inconsistencies that are being applied. Yeah, one minute 10 people, the next minute 12 or 20 people Bunnings open essential. The virus doesn’t attack essential businesses. Okay. But Bunnings is and so is you know, so is the largest stores, okay, but small cafes and businesses. Oh my god, this is where you all gonna die. You’re gonna die in the cafe. That’s my desk is going to be but let’s not mention all the local community that are all in the vegetables and the fruits and the shelves and oh, yeah, I’ve seen a whole lot of people touching the fruits in my local shop, my local Coles, local Woolies, so let’s not kid ourselves that we’ve had a full lockdown on either. We’ve had a partial lockdown. But we haven’t had a full lockdown. So let’s not kid ourselves, you can’t measure that stuff. That stuff can’t be measured in data, because it’s not stable. not stable on that, okay? And you don’t just say, Oh, you are essential and you’re non essential who is there to define these things. Who’s defining it. Who’s saying that large businesses are fine, and small businesses are not. So businesses will be open to businesses, it’ll be open to people for the masks issue, it will be open to the travel detainment. People have been detained and have been asked by the states to pay for their detainment. Queensland asks its own people to pay for being detained coming from the country from from outside the country and even if they don’t have symptoms they’re detained. Well, it doesn’t work that way. Under the law, okay, those laws doesn’t work that way. those laws must be struck out as part of the process of a class action because we’re saying they’re inconsistent with the biosecurity act. They’re inconsistent with, with the implied rights, they’re being protected constitutionally by the Bio Security Act. You can’t do that to people the Bio Security Act says if you do a bio screen control order you the Commonwealth pays, what the state’s doing. They’re letting the people pay. That’s an outrage. This is not the way you handle things. This is not the way you handle business. So we have a class action. We will be launching that very soon. The larger class action we working as I said on the influenza mandated vaccine class action and that could potentially form part of the larger one. Okay, but we’re ready to go. We’re ready to go with that one. All our arguments there and the arguments are the same. I’ve put my arguments publicly, please, go for it. The law is the law. It’s meant to be shared. Friends, there’s no copyright on my legal opinion, take it, read it, defend yourself. Now I’m very importantly though, and I have to say, I don’t recommend even though I argue that this is under the law is unlawful and our processes under which we can go and seek that and that is a class action in the court. Okay, we do that through the court, we do that collectively with no fear. Don’t be afraid, let’s stand up together and say processes must be followed. Okay. But I’m not saying or encouraging or mandating or whatever, saying to people breach the directives as they are, because I understand that people are vulnerable. And I understand that they could be exposing themselves to the brutality of police or the brutality of other people reacting around them. So I would never encourage people to breach anything. What I’m encouraging is if you feel something’s been wronged, or done by you incorrectly, we are raising these issues. And I do believe 100% that the laws that they’re actually allegedly following are in contradiction with their own public health acts and primarily inconsistent with the scheme that should operate primarily in this and that’s the Bio Security Act. Okay, but there’s the process is through class action, the process is through coming together. Okay, and saying, legally, we’ve got those processes. We live in a lovely country. There’s so much darkness at the moment. But there’s a history of common law that has been fought by some very great minds in this nation. Okay, there’s a history of beautiful Indigenous women and indigenous men who fought to also have their voices heard and create proper laws in this country. There’s a history of women, lovely women. I mean, I know I should say that men too, of course, there’s great judges. And it’s wonderful, wonderful people on the ground who’ve created some very, very important work. There’s some really good legislative writers in this country. We have some fantastic legislative writers in this country.

Molly Knight 47:16
That’s true, we do. Yeah. So, okay, coming together collectively. I see that and I think you’re right. It’s vital. We stand together and stand up. But if someone came to my house and said, Molly, here’s a letter and you’re the lucky one. We’ve chosen you. What do I do? Do I submit or how do I get past that?

Serene Teffaha 47:44
This is where it’s important to join this class action. There’s I’m getting hundreds of calls every day from around the country Serene help me Serene help me. Well, I can help you by the class action that we’ll do which will address every issue. Okay. That’s why I’m gonna roll that out as quickly as possible. Okay, I’m not here. I worry about people for them to say no, because I worry about more forceful things happening. Worry about force being used on them. Okay? So of course my advice would be, in the meantime, when you don’t have a voice that is actually saying to, you know, can come in and hold the baton for you and go in hard, okay? I can’t do that to over 100,000 people in this country who are upset, what I can do is do a class action to represent the 100,000 people. Okay? And I can do that and prepare them and have people who, and people who show the patience and the courage to stand up. Because this is no longer about personal outcomes. This is about collective outcomes. We need to collectively stand up and say, No, we live in a good country in a democratic country. We have laws here that work well. Sometimes, some of these laws are misinterpreted. Sometimes these laws are draconic, draconian, and they are inconsistent with other laws. And we have great judicial processes, judicial review and Commonwealth common law and torts and all sorts of things that can help us voice what we actually going through. That is difficult, but we need to have the bravery to come forward and not be afraid, okay? My class action will because it’s going to be with a lot of people. We’re going to be work, we’re working on forms. I’ve got my team now I’m putting together my team. And actually I’m looking for four part time consultants, who are excellent administrators. I’ve got already two that are fabulous. So I’ve got four that are fabulous two that are existing and two that have expressed I would really appreciate more expressions of interest for people initially to do it on volunteer and then paid basis. So initially, just so that we can get over the, the bump of getting the forms together and getting people to come through. And so what I’m looking for are fantastic administrators, okay, on a part time basis for up to four hours a day, five days a week, okay and they’d be rummaging through all the forms and contacting people and putting people in the right subclasses depending on their on the impact that they have made the best of class action. I’ve also got the AHPRA complaint. Okay. I have 150 up to 150. Now, doctors and nurses Austria’s practice chiropractors, you name it, the whole look okay, and they’re all 100% anonymous 100% anonymous, and the reason why they have to be is because AHPRA will target them. Absolutely. I’ll talk about what was going on. It is about the vaccine issue. It’s about the fact that there are serious adverse actions that don’t get reported properly in this country. Okay. They have a mandatory so they don’t have any mandatory reporting. The TGA has on their website. Oh, yeah, you can come and report it here. But most of the time, it’s a coincidence. And you have doctors trained and hospitals “Oh No”, they won’t recognize that you’ve been injured. Correct. And I’ve spoken to a lot of people. And this is a real problem. Vaccine Injury is a real problem. And there’s short term vaccine Injury, and there’s long term and we need to stop lying about it. Let’s stop lying about this. This is a real issue, talk to a person who has been vaccine injured, and then you’ll know some of these people who have pro vaccine till the cows come home. And then wait, what the hell is going on here? Why am I having these reactions? Okay. And I’m not talking here about small reactions. I’m talking here about severe reactions. And we don’t have proper reporting systems. We don’t have the data because proper report proper data comes from proper reporting. You don’t have proper reporting you don’t collect the data. Simple

So it doesn’t look like you have a major problem if you’re not collecting the data

Correct and also when you’re when you’re being gaslighted about the data okay when the data is like no oh my god do you think that’s because of this? Oh, you’re an idiot. And you have doctors criticizing doctors you should see when they’re slamming at each other it’s the worst thing you can see. Ohyou Oh, you are just anti, God who are you you should be shot lined up something must happen to you. Take a chill pill, talke a chill pill. Let’s consider some of these situation let’s consider logically Why are we being so? Oh my god so passionate about what are you the vaccine company getting the millions? Sure, are you getting some of these people don’t have the benefits, but it’s like they’ve got this whole litany of soldiers, vaccination soldiers

Molly Knight 53:09
Yes it is like that. That’s right. Yeah.

Serene Teffaha 53:12
And I’m not against vaccines, I treat vaccines, each one of them is separate. So I might have respect for some of the more older tested vaccines, but I don’t have respect for some of the more modern vaccines that are being rushed and let alone the corona vaccine allegedly gonna come very quickly with showing people are getting really sick. What is the agenda? Goodness me. Okay. There’s a lot of question marks, you know, and you know, people as I said, will go you’re a conspiracy theorist. Oh, you know what, I’ve seen a thing or two in my life. Maybe what? You’ve seen what I’ve seen, then you might understand people just that little bit more. Yes. The darkness that I have seen, maybe you’ll understand, sorry, I get a bit emotional because It’s been quite emotional in Victoria to be honest, because people are just so hatred of each other and they’re not listening. They’re not listening to each other. They’re not hearing each other, like respect each other. what someone is saying to you, they’re not coming with live. They’re coming with facts, they coming with evidence. Let’s be rational, you let rationality and just because I’m crying doesn’t mean I’m weak. It means I feel for people around me. So we must feel for each other, not hate each other because that’s the, you know, that’s part of the plan is to create a hatred against each other and I cant believe I’m crying it’s quite emotional today.

Molly Knight 54:48
Well, yeah, it’s a very emotional world that we’re living in at the moment, Serene. It’s, um, nothing makes sense. There’s no logic to anything that’s happening right at the moment. And people I just can’t believe that people are so unquestioning and and complacent and just quick to slot in and do whatever they’re told they’re like sheep they really are and I it just blows my mind that people will not question what’s going on because it does not make sense no sense.

Serene Teffaha 55:25
it doesn’t make sense that we don’t have to hate each other for it you know the studies you know when you quote studies and say you know the masks there’s been randomized clinical trials that have shown that the masks that the cloth masks are problematic the WHO itself says that in their own material. There’s no high quality evidence for this Okay, there’s comparative studies between the N 95 masks as well as the cloth masks as well as the surgical masks Okay, you know, there is issues around breathing and and and and issues around you know, they go “Oh no oxygen. nah, no impact”. I mean, you put it on for God’s sake. It doesn’t require a genius here. I put on a mask and I feel like I’m suffocating. Yes. Tell me something that I like I’m an idiot or something or I don’t understand or that I don’t know how to read. I know how to read. I understand the information in the data and even common people know how to read. This is inciting in people a lot of emotions. Because it’s a it’s an interference with yourself. It’s a violation. That’s what people are feeling. And then you have the rest of the community all scared. Oh, we better do what the government says. Better keep going.

Molly Knight 56:42
Very fearful. Yeah.

Serene Teffaha 56:43
Very fearful. And then and then they get angry with you because you’re confronting their fears It’s called cognitive dissonance. And that’s why they get angry with you. Let’s not get angry with each other. Let’s like hearing each other. When they say observational studies is the thing that says that cloth masks sould be worn. Sorry. I’m not going to go for observational studies. When I’ve got randomized clinical trials alright? Yesterday, it was no good, today it’s good. No, that’s not how science works. All of a sudden, you say that instead of playing the issues, they play the person, aw you’re a conspiracy theorist. That’s not our response to my arguments, my friend. I’m quoting all these facts. I’m quoting you studies, I’m quoting you from their own websites. I’m quoting you from their own studies. I’m quoting you from the independent expert. That’s not me being a conspiracy theorist. That’s me being logical. That’s me being rational. That’s me being scientific. So let’s hear each other and not get and then they emotion. Oh do you want your old people to die? Do you hate the 80 year olds? Don’t you just want them to die? I’m all for protecting people I’m all for but we need to do it rationally, we need to do it strategically emotional arguments are not going to get us anywhere. We need to look at patterns we need to look at statistics, we need to look at comorbidity, we need to look at what the virus is and hasn’t been isolated. And what are the issues around that whether testing and how do we deal with it and how do we prevent it? What kind of medicines work? What kind of medicines don’t work, be constructive?

Molly Knight 58:30
Let’s get the truth. Let’s get the truth of all of this because we’re not being told the truth, not by a longshot.

Serene Teffaha 58:36
It’s hard to get sometimes it’s a process. Sometimes it’s us learning together about what might work and more might not maybe there is no absolute truth. Maybe that’s something that we develop as we go along. Again, we just get to notions of truth of perceptions. Everyone has a perception. Everyone sees things from their own window of experience. We can’t disregard each other, you know, and I don’t mean to mock anyone, I’m just trying to provoke their minds, you know, to think outside of the square a little bit. You know what I mean? Just because the mainstream media and the mainstream scientists and governments have told you something repeatedly. It doesn’t mean it’s the reality. It doesn’t mean that there are no other perspectives. It doesn’t mean that there are hundred points of view, one incident can happen and you have 100 people looking at it, and they will report it in 100 different ways. Yeah, there is no such thing of 100% objectivity. What we do have is data. We can make conclusions. We can do some research. We can do randomized clinical trials, we can look at gold standards. We’ve got these things to protect us from ourselves. Let’s use that data correctly. And let’s come up with proper strategies. Of course, we should mitigate risk, no one’s saying that, there’s no denialism here. Yeah. denialism and rational sorry, if people want to ask questions they can ask questions.

Molly Knight 1:00:13
Yeah, it’s just when when a business, for instance, says that you have to either wear a mask to come into the store or pay by card you cannot pay by cash how legal is that? And is there anything we can do about that?

Serene Teffaha 1:00:36
I think you know, the problem is is like multiple layers of people telling other multiple layers of people threats and there’s also threat to cascading threats. You’ve got the common people at the bottom, the ones who are a retailer, okay, the ones who are the real the consumers. I mean, the retailers and they’ve got their hands tied. If you don’t do this we will fine you. So I go into a shop and I want to sit down the owners coming up, please leave. It’s not me, but just leave. I’m sorry, I forgot, you know, and so I don’t blame you. But what I do say is this stand up, be counted, if all the businesses, if all the businesses are not afraid, you know, We’re looking at some serious problems here, some serious social issues, mental health, suicide, domestic violence increase of paedophilia. Yeah, more child trafficking. Let’s call it out for what it is. 4,000 girls go missing every year from residential aged care they’re trafficed in this country. Yes.

Molly Knight 1:01:58
Why do we not hear about that?

Serene Teffaha 1:02:02
In this environment, businesses will fail.

I couldn’t hear you again. Say that again.

Molly Knight 1:02:11
You’re sorry. Seems to be breaking up a little bit Serene. Can you hear me now? Can you hear me? I was. Hello. I think we’ve lost connection. Are you there Serene?

Serene Teffaha 1:02:26
I think I’ve got you. I’ve got you up. Yeah, I got you. I’ve got you here.

Molly Knight 1:02:31
So you were saying about? Yeah, I can hear you. You can hear me my Yes. Yes. Yes. Can you hear me?

Serene Teffaha 1:02:39
Yes. So there’s a lot of darkness that’s happening behind the scenes. Okay. And then, every 30 seconds a child goes missing in the world. Every 30 seconds. That’s the virus of the world. Yeah. And that’s a fact. It’s not a contention. It’s not disputed. That’s horrible. With these shutdowns and lock downs and with these businesses closing and families, the stresses and you can’t even imagine how many more people will die, and how many people are dying already from suicide. Yes, it has increased statistics. Let’s talk about statistics. Let’s talk about it. Let’s line it up. Now it’s okay if 5,000 died from suicide, but not okay, if 105 die here. Now, how does that work? I’m not saying that 5,000 die of suicide, but I’m saying that statistically, heaps are dying. And there is actually a deep correlation now, between what is going to go on with the systemic shutdowns that are unnecessary. You can mitigate and deal with virus without complete shutdowns in the way that they’ve done it. And who comes up with these unscientific principles are 20 people iE 10 people IE, five people who can handle here, don’t do this. Don’t do that right here. Do get Come on. Go down the Woolies watch the screens. Every finger in the town has been there. Okay, we’ll talk about surface transferal. Bananas, just look at the bananas. The apples. Oh my god, everyone’s touched it. It doesn’t matter how many times you wash your hands you’re not going to take away those fingerprints. But in any case, you know where who says these these are scientific principles. There are top experts who’ve blown out of the water aspects of social distancing. And, and these randomized selective shutdowns, okay, these rules that they come back with, okay? You know, things can happen on things don’t happen when you’re essentially doing things but things will happen when you’re not essentially doing business getting consistent. It’s illogical. Or you want to apply things apply it from a scientific perspective. Don’t just listen to two people, Neil Ferguson don’t just listen to one person, he’s not the only epidemologist in the world, and he’s remodelling has been completely thrown out of the water and people get really upset “nah there was modeling, we’re all gonna die”. And unfortunately, the government plays on to that fear of individuals isn’t there’s almost a trauma or a Stockholm syndrome in terms of just people’s vulnerability, okay, and people listening to authority. We’ve been trained very well as a society to listen to authority. It’s been happening very well since Edward Bernays, Sigmund Freud, Sigmund Freud’s nephew, got his hands on private companies. Okay. Oh, yeah, it’s been done very well. He’s the one that changed the word propaganda to public relations. That’s what government doesn’t does doesn’t do propaganda anymore. It does public relations. Now, if you know your history, and if you very well read, and if you understand human psychology and behavior, you can see patterns developing historically and we’re now at a real crossroads. In terms of the asserting of our leadership, our leadership is usurpedby private interests. It’s fully it has been fully usurped. Okay, by private interests. Okay. You know, you don’t know where the public ends and where the private start, okay, and is that a true very dangerous when you’re talking about executive decision makers? It’s very dangerous when you have these affiliations when political parties will have funders, from the mining to the all sorts of things. Hey, my name is construction. No one hands off, hands off, no-one touch them. Nobody touch them in this corona times, no hands off Yeah, not the mining conglomerate, no just your local cafe. Yeah, that’s where the virus lives? Open your eyes understand what’s going on. Yeah, wake up wake up. Question. Listen, understand, observe, analyze, compare, get your statistics get your data, start opening up your eyes and don’t be so offended when someone presents you something that gets you all like your viewpoint of the world. That is

Molly Knight 1:07:35

Serene Teffaha 1:07:36
Yeah, roses and you know the world is love that we really got to understand there’s a lot of risks around us, okay. And we need to understand classify risk, okay, and understand how to measure it. And we have we’ve got epidemiology with a lot of good sciences. Qualitative data collection and analysis. We’ve got this lets use it.

Molly Knight 1:08:00
Alright, thanks. Serene. Um, one of the the biggest theme of what’s coming through from our watchers tonight is how can people support you? What, what do you need?

Serene Teffaha 1:08:14
What I need is people to stand up. So when I’m ready to put this out, and I’m working with my team, literally, we’re not sleeping this over and you know, I have two angels that have come in my life, Melissa and Sandy. And, and, you know, and and they’ve been a real godsend to me, you know, because they’ve just been such a lovely, lovely people. And they’ve been we’ve all been doing this for free, like we’re not doing it like we just want to stop this, you know? Yes. agreement, everything going forward. We’re asking for contributions. Now if we will open it up to far more people, those contributions are going to be far less if we all put it together to get the experts to get the top barristers. you know to get all of that it means that we all put in a little to get a lot in our What I want is simply people to come on board. Don’t be afraid, come on board. Together, we will make a difference. Lovely. And how do we do that? How do we come on board? I’m going to be releasing that information next Monday, Tuesday, we’ll have all of our forms we’ll have all the agreements we’ll have all of our strategy set out. You know, we’ve already got that for our wonderful influenza mandate group. Okay. And we’ve already trialed and tested it. So that’s been wonderful that we’ve gathered the people in the, you know, when we’ve trialed, how we run a good class action and all that was in a smaller group of people. But we’ve obviously got them now together, and we move them to the next phase. So it’s given us learnings on how to move in a better direction. So now we’re much more prepared to go to the next stage, you know, and yeah, and so, join, join. Don’t be afraid, put your fear aside park it all the way and let’s do this together.

Molly Knight 1:10:01
Alright, so they go to your web page.

Serene Teffaha 1:10:03
Yes, they go to my web page, they go to my Facebook, and I’ll share it with with the health party as well. And the people that I know and so it will be spread everywhere and maybe even if you’ve got a list of people who are on there tonight that can be shared with them as well.

Molly Knight 1:10:19
Okay, all right. So perhaps if anybody is interested in the meantime, they could certainly send their email address, I’d be happy to collate anyone who wants to send their email address to me and pass it on to Serene or contact your Facebook or your your web page. And we’ll certainly share all your information on on our web page and our Facebook and so on. Because, you know, for me personally, I think we have a couple of issues that are about to change mankind. Yes. And that scares me. Yes. Um, it really scares me It rocks my world. It’s so serious. So we do need to stand up, we need to wake up, people wake up, stand up and stand together. Because together we’re safe, we can make change for humanity, because this is not about individuals. This is about the human race. That’s it.

Serene Teffaha 1:11:34
Molly that’s beautiful. Absolutely. It’s very touching. And, you know, it comes from a little wisdom I can see. From beautiful window and eyes of wisdom, you know, and and, and I think, you know, I just, I close my eyes at night and I just put out a beautiful prayer to everyone that everyone is safe even those that I don’t like that we’re safe and that we can. Oh well. together to get these traumas that have been inbuilt against each other that would be set up to be against each other. When we need to just be heard and understood, and really understand that we have the opportunity to not be afraid of those that do seek to limit us, enslave us, encapture us, whatever you want to call it. dominate us bully us, tell us that we don’t have a voice. we do we have a voice. We all deserve to be heard. I have trust. I have some trust remaining in the judiciary.` I do. I think that they’re also being impacted. These judges are also being impacted. Okay. And I do believe that if we put it up to them, that at least we can get that arm of government to have a look at it. Okay, because we’ve got very, very powerful evidence here. You know, and let’s test it out in court because I’m confident when you test this out in court what the result will be. I’m confident.

Molly Knight 1:13:05
Well, I’m confident that there’s going to be an awful lot of people right behind you. Serene, and I will certainly be one of them.

Serene Teffaha 1:13:12
Thanks you so much it has been such a delight, honestly. Thank you.

Molly Knight 1:13:15
Thank you Serene. I hope we can get you back again because I think you have so much to offer us. Thank you. And it’s been a total delight. listening to you and feeling your passion and knowing that you’re on the right track. Because if people don’t start to stand up and do something, we are lost.

Serene Teffaha 1:13:39
Yeah, we are, we are really in a society like this, you know, I want I just want logic. I want logic. I want rationale. You know, I want citizenship. I want participation. You know, I want people to be heard. I’m not dismissing the other side. Okay, but they also musn’t dismiss And they can’t be bullies in this, you know, we have to let go of our power tripping need, we have to let go of the need that we’ve been trained to compete with each other. We need to start to co-operate with each other, and inspire each other and go, hey, let’s really look at what science means science is not a dogma, it’s become a dogma, become a political tool being mean, when doctors are afraid to speak out, there’s a problem. The problem when scientists are afraid to speak that’s the problem.

Molly Knight 1:14:31
If there’s something wrong, definitely something. Okay. On that note, Serene. I thank you. I thank you very, very much for joining us and wish you good night and God bless and Godspeed in your work

Serene Teffaha 1:14:48
You’re so lovely. And it’s been such an honor and a pleasure. Thank you.

Molly Knight 1:14:52
Thank you. Serene. Thank you. Nice, good night, everyone. Thank you all for joining us. I hope you’ve gained as much as I have from this talk with Serene. Thank you. Good night.


Karen Chegwidden, President of the Home Education Association joined HAP’s Molly Knight on 16th July 2020 to chat about home education.

Some of the key topics discussed were:

  • Where to get started
  • The pitfalls to watch out for
  • Real-life skill building experiences
  • The availability of community sports and activities
  • Networking with other home educating families
  • Where to go for support


Click on the image below to watch the recorded interview.


Read the transcript of the discussion below: (E&OE)

Molly Knight 0:04
I’m really excited to do this talk tonight because the topic that we’re talking about, I think is absolutely spot on for the times that we’re living in now. And tonight we’re going to be talking with Karen Chegwidden, and she’s the mother of three, and her two adult children gained admission to uni without ever having been to high school. And without an HSC. Karen lives in the middle of the bush in northern New South Wales, and she works as a midwife. in her spare time, she’s president of the Home Education Association, which is a voluntary role in a national not for profit organization, and it’s dedicated to supporting home educators right across Australia. Now, I’ll just mention here, because Karen is right in the middle of the bush, and she is linked to us via satellite. Sometimes apparently, she might get, you know, a bit of pixelation and we might lose it for a second. But stick with us and it will come back. Welcome, Karen.

Karen Chegwidden 1:09
Thanks. Molly pleasure to be here.

Molly Knight 1:11
Yes, thank you so much. When we thought about this topic, it’s very relevant because of all the homeschooling that everyone’s been forced to do with the COVID issue. And my daughter was complaining because it was she found it very, very difficult. She runs a business from home and trying to educate her children. So she found that aspect, very difficult. And I must admit, I thought, Hmm, I don’t know that I could have ever homeschool. I used to love it when you know, the holidays were over and it was time for school again, so that kids could be back at school. So I guess I’m a bit too selfish, perhaps. But I’d like to ask you first. Why did you get involved in homeschooling what led you to make that choice.

Karen Chegwidden 2:04
Yeah, so for us, for my family, it wasn’t really, it wasn’t a choice that we made proactively. It was a choice that we made when we were in a position where we felt like we had no other choice. My older two children both went off to school at five like most kids do, and a few years down the track by the time he was eight, my eldest son, who’s my second child, was really just not coping with school. He wasn’t learning well, his behavior was spiraling out of control. And having been to Christian school and to public school and to Steiner school. We eventually went, Okay, I think we better just do this ourselves. And so, you know, I always say to people, we were dragged kicking and screaming into this gig. It was going to be temporary, but it absolutely changed our lives for the better. And we saw our struggling little boy changed from a child who hated going to school, who hated learning, who was angry and acting out to being an engaged happy little boy again. And so for us, we got our son back. And you know now he’s a twenty-three year old and he’s at university and the dyslexia that caused all the grief way back in the beginning really doesn’t impact him very much at all anymore. And and home education did that. We did that.

Molly Knight 3:38
Huh? Yeah, that’s very impressive. I think there’s probably a lot of children that would benefit from that homeschooling if it if it’s possible for people to do it. And I know that there’s lots of kids with a lot of emotional issues at school these days, a lot of kids are medicated as well, which is tragic. So can you tell me a bit about home education and what’s involved?

Karen Chegwidden 4:06
Sure. So home education is where parents assume all of the responsibility for their child’s education. So that means that you plan the lesson, you deliver the content, you do all of the teaching, you keep all of your own records. You are accountable in that you engage with the regulatory body in your state, and that’s different in every state, but home education is legal in every state and territory in Australia. And so really, it’s just about the parents stepping up to the plate and saying, actually, I’m going to I’m going to do this. So yeah, you, you have all that responsibility also bear all the costs. So there are no tax breaks. There aren’t any allowances for home educated students. So if your child goes to school, they attract many thousands of dollars worth of Government funding every year so that that can happen. And when you opt out of that system, you opt out of that funding as well.

Molly Knight 5:08
Hmm. Okay, so well, it’s a responsibility and an incredible commitment, isn’t it on the side of the parents is the curriculum is set, though. It’s it’s a set curriculum that you follow.

Karen Chegwidden 5:21
Yeah, so that depends on where you live. In New South Wales, the regulations state that you’re supposed to deliver a program that’s based on the New South Wales syllabus in most of the rest of Australia, and you’re not tied to any particular curriculum, most of the rest of Australia really likes you to use the Australian Curriculum through ACARA, but it’s not mandatory. Actually, like even I think there’s a few places that say, you know, this is what we really want you to do, but, but if you can show that you’re delivering a high quality education for your child, then you can follow whatever curriculum you like.

Molly Knight 6:05
How would you show that you have that you you are giving your child a good education? How would that be shown?

Karen Chegwidden 6:15
So you would need to show that you covering all of the key learning areas. So the Australian curriculum has eight key learning areas and most of the states that say, Okay, well, you don’t have to use the Australian curriculum, but you need to cover these same same subjects. If you can show the covering those same subjects in a different way, then that’s usually okay. It’s about showing that that your child is learning that they’re making progress that they’re progressing through learning so you might want to follow a Singapore maths program or a UK English Program or some people want to follow Steiner program and so they get the Steiner curriculum and they follow that You should do more or less follow the Australian Curriculum or a version of it. Yes, absolutely. It’s really flexible. And I think that’s one of the strengths. Hmm, just gives you that education to your individual student in a way that just isn’t possible in schools.

Molly Knight 7:19
Yeah, absolutely. That’s got to be probably the greatest advantage of doing it for the children isn’t it. So in your lesson plans, so what’s involved? So you would get a Steiner program and then that would be outlined of how you go about implementing it with your child. For instance, maybe UK.

Karen Chegwidden 7:41
Yeah. So, you could, you can buy you can just purchase an entire curriculum with lesson plans. You can basically purchase things that work like distance education, curriculum. There are lots of curriculum suppliers out there in this market. In Australia and around the world, so you can buy as much as you like. A lot of people buy things for some subjects and then design their own things for other subjects. So it’s pretty common to have like a maths program that you follow whether that’s a textbook or an online program, most home educators would just go Okay, that’s a thing that we, we put in our budget, we pay for that. But write your own program following those curriculum guidelines, for other things. Some people would do it for everything. Most of us do combinations of things. So, you know, if I was teaching my child who was maybe a Year 2 child or Year 1 Year 2, you know, one of the really fun things that we did. So one of the lesson plans we put together was we studied this book called How to make an apple pie and see the world and it was so fun. We read the books, this gorgeous little picture book about someone who’s going around the world collecting all the ingredients in the places where they grown so that they can make an apple pie. And in the book there’s a recipe. And so we read that book every day, we learned about the countries that they visited, we made apple pies. And then we made other things we went, well, you know, they went, they went to France to get the eggs. So what what else can we make? That’s French. And so we cooked some French food at France and, and at the end, we wrote our own little story about how to make an apple pie and see Australia. And so in that, in that lesson plan that we put that I put together for my, my son, we learned English, we learn maths, when we were doing all of the cooking stuff, we learn those good life skills, cooking and of course cleaning because who wants a kitchen that’s a disaster as well as lots of geography and even a bit of history. And some of the folk stories of those cultures, so you can weave it all together. And it’s very flexible as, as long as you’re, you know, looking back at those curriculums and going well, you know, because they’re just general guides. They make they make broad statements. So they’re not really prescriptive in the way that people think they are the curriculum documents and they’re available for free on the internet, anyone can get on and have a look at them.

Molly Knight 10:28
Oh, gosh, okay. So if you had a child that had a bent towards science, for instance, you could plan a lot more science, some little experiments, I mean, do a lot more to sell it even. They’re learning in that particular area, individual sounds marvellous actually.

Karen Chegwidden 10:50
And you might use that as a way in to, to get some sneaky learning in other subject areas in for your students. So if you had a reluctant writer who loved science, then you might be able to get them to write up their science experiment. They might write a journal about the science. You know, you can sneak that literacy in there for them to do even when they’re like, No, I don’t do writing my, um, my youngest is we’d be finished our work and we go out to the park. And then someone would say, Oh, you know, you off school today? And he said, No, no, I’m a home schooler. And then someone said to him one day, so have you finished your lessons for the day? And he looked at them and went No, I don’t do lessons. It’s one of those you know, moments where you think open up and swallow me earth because of course we do lessons. But he didn’t identify them as lessons because they were fun and they were things that he was interested in and we snuck it in. When he was thinking that he was having fun

Molly Knight 11:58
Sounds like good parenting Is it difficult say you work from home? Say you’re a mum who has an online business or something how difficult is it to combine educating your child at home and running a business from home? Because a lot of a lot of people do that these days, don’t they?

Karen Chegwidden 12:19
Yes, they do. Look, it’s challenging, but it’s definitely doable. I think it’s about having clearly defined expectations, and about accessing the support that you need. So I know for me, I’ve worked outside of the home alongside home educating my children forever since they’ve they started back in 2008. And that was just you know, it was a juggle and I did permanent night shifts for a long time husband juggled his shifts that we could be there for the kids. We took it in turns. We partnered with other families in our community as well. So Yeah, one of the other moms, I would have her kids one day a week and we would do particular subjects we did art and music at my house and then when I was at work, her kids would go to my my kids would go to her house and they would do cooking and gardening and that kind of stuff together. So I think that there are lots of ways that you can get through it. One mum I was talking to recently talked about how it was just about for her it was like changing shoes. And so in the morning, put on her metaphorical joggers, and, and she had this clearly defined time where she dedicated to home education to being there with her children, doing that structured, really focused learning. And then in the afternoon, they did more self directed things and she put on her metaphorical high heels and did her work. And that was her work and over the time the kids learn that that’s what’s going to happen. It’s not instantaneous, and it is a journey. It’s difficult for so many families at the moment that have been thrown in and expected to be able to do it all at once. Most of us as we come to homeschooling, and probably more than half of the homeschooling community now are like me, people for whom home education wasn’t their first choice. So they have these other lives, and they’ve they’ve had a different experience of education. And so they have to figure out how to do that. And we know that that doesn’t happen overnight. It happens over a period and many times over a period of months. And the longer your child has been in school, the longer it takes to make that transition to be a bit more of an independent learner to find your purpose so that you can still get your work done, as well as get your child’s education done.

Molly Knight 14:59
Hmm. Yeah wouldn’t be a transition for everyone for everyone.

Karen Chegwidden 15:03
Yeah, yeah

Molly Knight 15:05
So when I think of homeschooling, I think of the isolation and the lack of social interaction, do you? I mean, not you just said your children would go to the other family. Is there a lot of that that happens? I mean, is this a real nicely connected group of families that all homeschool and are in touch with each other?

Karen Chegwidden 15:30
Yeah, there absolutely are. There are local community groups of homeschoolers in almost every community in every area of Australia at this point, we’re pretty social bunch. And we hardly ever spend all day around the table. book learning like, like people imagine us like the stereotype is that you stay at home, you don’t go out you don’t mix with people. You sit at the table, you do lots of book work, but the reality is completely different. So the reality, like these are kids who go to drama groups and they have choirs and they go to science groups and they have all kinds of sporting events. And I know in my district every year, except for this year because it hasn’t been able to happen but every year there’s there’s a sports carnival just like schools have and so, there’s usually over 100 kids at that sports Carnival, which is pretty good effort for for a regional, regional community. I think oftentimes, there’s so much on and we have so many things that we do together in groups. I think that home educated students, they go to art galleries, and to museums and to all kinds of places to be learning in the community, as well. Oftentimes, the challenge is actually finding enough time to be at home to do any book work, rather than not socialized at all. Yeah, what’s different for us at the moment too, we’re all home a lot more than we used to be.

Molly Knight 17:03
It is a different set of circumstances now, that’s for sure. Um, would you what would be a disadvantage you’d see of homeschooling? Or is there any? Is there any disadvantages to do it?

Karen Chegwidden 17:16
I don’t know that there are any disadvantages for the children. I think, you know, they get this focused, individualized education where they’re able to explore all kinds of things, if suddenly ability to where, you know, some people say that if children had been in school, that would have been a learning difficulty, but since they’re at home, it was just a difference. And it never really became a problem. So you can overcome all that kind of stuff. Kids can go as fast and as far as they want to this. There’s no limit to the number of subjects that they can do. You can do, you can do if everything if you can fit it in. If you’ve got a really switched on learner, then you can do so much more, so much more than you would do in a traditional school. I don’t know that there are any disadvantages for the kids at all, I think perhaps I have a smaller group of people from whom to draw their friends, depending on what your local home ed community is, like. I think for families, the sacrifices are all made by the parents. So often, the choice to home educate means becoming a one one income family. And that’s a really big sacrifice for a family to make. It’s not a choice that some families can make, just for that reason, or, or you do what I did, and you just try to do it all and you work alongside of your home education, but it’s, you know, it’s a lot. It’s a lot of work and so it’s, you know, we chose the parent is primarily responsible for that, that home education. They’re the ones that makes those sacrifices they they give their time. They give their talents like you’ve got to do some preparation work. It doesn’t doesn’t just happen. You can’t just tumble it in the morning and pack the lunch box. away you go, you’ve actually got to think, Okay, what is it that we’re doing today? And how is it that we’re going to? How are we going to get there, So yeah, there. And it sounds like a big deal. And I think depending on how you were thinking that it would probably be, that could easily be a disadvantage, but I think the reward at the end of that is that you have this connection with your child, that is deep and that is strong. And your kids often have really good relationships with each other as well. They become really good friends. I know that I saw my children go from squabbling siblings to being best friends. And that’s just, that’s so great. You know, that was worth it every time that I didn’t get to sleep after night shift for me that’s that’s where the rewards hang.

Molly Knight 20:17
That’s, that’s fantastic. What is different states have different rules do they? Like if you wanted to do it in WA it’s very different to New South or? Yeah.

Karen Chegwidden 20:31
Yeah, look, they all have some broad similarities. You’re required to register with your regulatory body in, in whatever state you’re in. So, all states have have a process where you basically fill in a form someone from the regulatory body contacts you there’s an interview process and then they recommend you for registration or not hardly ever not. That’s basically what the process looks like in New South Wales and in Western Australia. In Victoria, it’s mostly done by paperwork. So you just send in your form and and then they do an audit of certain number of families every year. So they they will ask you for more information they look over your program, that kind of stuff, but they only visit 10% of the families each year and this random audit selection for the visiting process. Queensland doesn’t visit at all. It’s completely paperwork for them. So again, you’ve sent in a form you send in your education plan, once a year, you send in a progress report. And it’s all done via the paperwork, which until recently was snail mail, but of course now they’ve had to make the change to email. Probably the only really different state is South Australia. In fact, you enroll in a school, and then you’re quite free to attend. So you’re always connected to that school. It’s an interesting system. And it’s really the only one that’s quite different. All the other states have varying components that involve the initial form some sort of an assessment visit, or sending in paperwork instead of that assessment visit and then reporting. Yeah

Molly Knight 22:40
So you mentioned that they assess you and they approve or not approve what what sort of circumstances might there be for the regulatory body decision to be no, you can’t homeschool what would trigger that. Do you think?

Karen Chegwidden 22:59
Yeah look they all have particular requirements that they want to see. So in New South Wales, they want to see that you’ve got a learning plan, they want to see that you’ve got adequate resources, they want to see that you’re, you’re providing a program that’s based on those New South Wales syllabus outcomes. And they want to see your child to make sure that they’re safe. So there’s a child protection component of it. So they like to visualize the child for that reason, and that’s something that happens in in several states. Reasons they would knock you back are often around not just not having adequate plans in place or not having adequate resources and it hardly ever happens. And when it does, you know, mostly they would say, look, you can have a really short registration period, but these are the things that we’re concerned about and this is what we want you to fix. So we’re going to come back in a month or two and And have another look. Yeah, very, very rare that any gets knocked back. So, now in Queensland, you’ve got to show that your child’s made progress. you’ve got to describe your teaching and learning strategies, you provide work samples, if you don’t provide the things that they need, they write to you and say, Look, we need these things or we won’t be able to approve it and you’ve got 28 days to provide them. And so as long as you provide them, generally you’re all good. In I think, that point you went, you didn’t provide them what they needed, then that you would get a letter saying you’ve not registered anymore.

Molly Knight 24:45
Okay. And in South Australia, because you have to be aligned with a school is that so the school can continue to get the funding for that child? I don’t know, just a thought.

Karen Chegwidden 24:56
Yeah, I really don’t know how the funding works in South Australia. But you need to be connected to that school. So yeah, I don’t know why it’s an unusual model. It’s quite, quite different to everywhere else. Hmm.

Molly Knight 25:14
So around Australia, how many kids are home schooled? What’s the numbers like?

Karen Chegwidden 25:19
Wow, yeah, that’s the $64 million question really the answer is that no one really knows. Because we think that there are probably easily as many children who are homeschooled and not registered as there are who are homeschooled and registered. So you know, our best guess would be maybe 20,000 students.

Molly Knight 25:46
Wow. Okay. So how can you homeschool but not register your child? I mean, is not law. To go to school is

Karen Chegwidden 25:58
It is a law, the law says that you must register or enroll your child and it says that in every state, but we know that not everyone follows every law. Sometimes we drive our cars too fast, and that’s a law and we don’t follow it. Sometimes people choose civil disobedience for whatever reason that they want. People have all different reasons for doing all different things in life, and they’re just choices that people make.

Molly Knight 26:27
Okay, that’s interesting.

Karen Chegwidden 26:30
Yes, states that have really good regulations and legislation around home education enjoy a higher percentage higher engagement with system. So places like the AC T and Victoria probably have higher levels of registration than somewhere like New South Wales where it’s often its quite difficult to engage with that regulatory body. For For instance, if you’re in Victoria or Tasmania or the ACT, you could be a registered home educator and you could attend school part time one or two days a week or for a particular subject. And that would be okay, because that’s facilitated in those states. But if you’re in New South Wales or Queensland, it’s just not possible.

Molly Knight 27:20
Do you think it’s an advantage to home school and a little bit of school school or a disadvantage? How do you think that sits?

Karen Chegwidden 27:29
I think, I think that more options is better. I think the more options and the more choices that we have around education and how that’s delivered, the more student’s needs will be met. And so for some students, doing that combination is going to be really valuable. It’ll be really worthwhile. How fantastic to live in a state where that’s possible where you have those choices you can make. Too it could be support of families. So it could be you know, if you’re a family that needs to work part time then having your child in school a couple of days a week really takes that pressure off. And that can be a good thing can let children who have special needs like maybe autism, who might struggle to go to school all of the time, but who would really enjoy being there just one or two days a week, it allows them to have that opportunity. And for children who are elite sports people, for example, who are doing all that, that extra training who are competing in swimming or gymnastics, or golf or whatever it is, they have the ability then to be part of the schools competitions and so regionals, all of that stuff, which you can’t do when you sit outside of the school system. So to be able to access those things that are really important to your child. I think that’s a huge advantage. You know, I would love to see, coming out of COVID, more diff more options, more choices for people around around education? Wouldn’t it be amazing if if those were choices that Australian families were able to make not just those in a select few states? Wouldn’t it be amazing if we could make other choices too like maybe, maybe we could have our students learning facilitated by teachers in a school, but that they didn’t have to actually attend all of the time. Perhaps they could do some of their learning online from home on an ongoing basis and do some of it at school as well. I think there are lots of different models out there around the world. And there are lots of possibilities and the more choices we have, the more students needs we’ll meet and when we meet the students needs, we get better outcomes.

Molly Knight 29:52
Absolutely, yeah. It would make it a bit more individualized for the families and the child with their particularl needs. Yeah, I think it’s great. And perhaps coming out of COVID that may be the trigger that makes some change happen, certainly in a lot of ways it is, but also in the education. So, yes, a question that I want to know because of my grandkids ages. Is it harder to homeschool school like a kindy? child? If they’ve never been to school? How hard is it to get them into a routine because they’re used to playing and having fun and suddenly they need some structure around what they’re doing. So is it more difficult for a younger child to get into it? Or is it harder to keep an older child motivated and engaged in their work?

Karen Chegwidden 30:49
Yeah, look, I think that probably it’s easier. It’s easier if you start from the beginning because that child has no other expectations. They don’t know what schools like they haven’t gone off and been separate from their parents and their family for all of that time, every day of the week, and so much more natural. No, you, you’re your child’s first teacher, and you teach them all kinds of things when they’re little without even thinking about it. You know, we teach them how to talk and how to walk. We teach them good manners, we teach them to use the toilet skills that will last a lifetime and still be useful. There’s absolutely no reason why they can’t learn many other skills and all of the things that we think of as formal education in a similar kind of way, and especially for the kindy kid, you know, an hour a day of formal instruction would be enough to cover the curriculum. Most of the learning that children of that age do can occur through play. And so it can occur, really natural, exploratory, way within their world just by providing them with opportunity. I think when you come out, you’ve got particular expectations. Mostly, mostly you pull your kids out of school because school isn’t going swimmingly well, it’s not meeting your child’s needs for some reason. And so. So that means that there’s some difficulty there that you have to then overcome or undo there’s going to be some problems with that. So, yeah, I think probably the people who are smart enough to choose it from the beginning had an easier ride than than someone like me.

Molly Knight 32:34
If you had your time over again, would you start at the beginning and not do school?

Karen Chegwidden 32:39
Absolutely. At all. Yep. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. My only regret is that I just didn’t have the courage to do it from the beginning. Hmm,

Molly Knight 32:49
Why would that be what what was it that? Did you think about it?

Karen Chegwidden 32:54
Yeah, yeah we did. We knew people who are homeschooling and we thought about it. It just, it seemed like a really big decision at the time and, and we didn’t want our kids to miss out on anything. And so we really were like, you know, we’re parents, they just want the best for their kids and, and it was difficult for us to conceptualize that the best for our kids wasn’t going to look like our own childhoods had looked. It was absolutely possible for them to go to sports carnivals and be in musicals, and have friends and do all of the things that we really liked about school. We just couldn’t get our heads around it. And I think, you know your kids and you learn as you go along, I think, yeah, we were just scared and we made it bigger. We made it bigger than it was. What if I mess this up? What if I ruin my child’s life? What if it’s the wrong decision? The answer, of course is that the school is always at the end of the street still. And if it’s the wrong decision, then you simply make a new decision. But it takes a few years of growth as a parent to realize that I think, you know, when we’re just starting out and our kids are little, not all of us, not all of us get that. You do the best that you can with what you’ve got at the time.

Molly Knight 34:26
Yeah, exactly. It’s easy to look back and say, that’s what we could have done differently, but at the time, you make your decisions based on the knowledge you’ve got, yeah. So with homeschooling now and Zoom, is there a lot more interaction between the kids online with other children, or does that not happen?

Karen Chegwidden 34:48
Now that does happen and they’ve come up with all kinds of creative ways to play games together through through connections like Zoom. You know, playing board games at both ends of the screen and card games and dungeons and dragons and all kinds of things that they they’re getting together to do that they used to do together in person. Absolutely. It’s not the same, I don’t think. But um, but the guys, the kids, they’re natives, to this technology. This is this is their generation. And so they just really take to it they find ways to do things that we never even thought were possible. If you had asked me if I knew anyone who played UNO, on Zoom, I would have said no, but if you ask me, the answer is absolutely yes.

Molly Knight 35:42
It’s amazing. It is amazing, isn’t it?

Karen Chegwidden 35:44
Yeah. It Is

Molly Knight 35:46
Yeah, look, I guess, um, well, there’s clearly a lot of people who are doing it. And when I was talking to my daughter, she said, Mom, there’s a lot of people in our community and she’s in suburban Sydney, so yeah. Are there lots more in the cities coming into homeschooling? I mean, my perception. Yeah, sorry. Go on.

Karen Chegwidden 36:12
No you go on.

Molly Knight 36:13
Oh well, my perception is homeschooling would be isolated areas where you can’t really get to school or, you know, something in the outback, or that’s sort of my perception. But you know, my daughter said, Mom, there’s lots of them. In the city.

Karen Chegwidden 36:30
There are lots of them. Yeah, absolutely. There are loads of kids in cities who are home educated. And, you know, it’s a choice that families make for all kinds of reasons. There certainly are very large groups in in all of the areas, in all the suburban areas. You know, on the Central Coast, there’s probably a group that has over 300 families, you know, gosh, huh? So that’s, that’s a lot of kids.

Molly Knight 37:02
That’s a lot of children. Yes. Yeah. So in your

Karen Chegwidden 37:06
communities in Sydney,

Molly Knight 37:11
in part of your organization is do you sort of organize any get togethers or is that more of a community thing that groups do together?

Karen Chegwidden 37:20
Yeah. So the answer to that is, is a little bit of both. So it’s a community thing that groups do within their local community. So So when my kids were high school aged, I really wanted them to have that group of high school aged kids. And so we started at a high school group and we went on excursions, and we went paddling on the lake and we did all sorts of amazing things. And we got together at least once a month, but often lots of other times and so i just i coordinated all of those things. And and the kids all came, but, and that’s mostly how it works in our communities is that one of the moms will go Actually, I really want to organize an excursion to the State Library who wants to come. And and so then people from within the community put up their hands like, yeah, I’ll be part of that. Yeah, I’ll be part of that. And so, so the group forms and they go off and they do things. So sometimes they’re a single event, sometimes they’re weekly events. And usually that happens at the community level. The role that the home Education Association plays in that is, is about insurance. So we provide insurance to our members that protects them over so public liability insurance that all of our members have access to. And we also provide insurance for work experience so that home educated students can go off and do work experience just like they’re traditionally schooled, is

Molly Knight 38:49
certainly well organized isn’t it.

Karen Chegwidden 38:50
Often, you need public liability. Yeah, I hadn’t thought I was just gonna say public liability and insurance to be able to hire community facilities to so if you were to meet in a hall to do a science group, you need to have that public liability to be able to hire the hall. So yeah that’s where the HA and we provide that.

Molly Knight 39:15
OK and you give that to the groups yeah? As a member? What about the end of high school? How do these homeschool kids sit exams? Or do they sit exams? Do they go in and join the mob and sit down for the HSC or?

Karen Chegwidden 39:32
No, no, mostly they don’t. In some states, it’s, it’s kind of almost possible. Like in South Australia in senior high school, you can sign on to do your SATes through the distance education provider there. And so those kids would then do their exams and all this stuff like everyone else does, but I don’t think anywhere else that’s actually possible. So if you home educate you don’t, you don’t get a VCE or HSC or whatever it’s whatever your leaving certificate is called in the state where you are. So you need to find an alternate pathway. And there are lots and lots of those. So lots of kids go to TAFE would be their senior high school years, often from like from about 15. Home educated students start to move into TAFE doing doing subjects of their choice doing things that they’re interested in. Sometimes they can do a certificate or a diploma through another registered training organisation something within their community. So I know my eldest to my daughter did a certificate for in music performance through the local conservatorium and then got into a music degree on the basis of that plus an audition. No HSC no. My son, a certificate re certificate three certificate four, can’t even remember anymore in laboratory technology through TAFE. And registered into a Sport Science Program at university on the basis of that qualification, He had this and he then went and did a program through Newcastle University for students aged between 17 and 21, who don’t have HSCs. And so he did that and got a better mark and then got into the university of his choice doing the same course. I know people who have done the SAT exam so you can just pay a fee and do a stat test. You can sit for the SAT’s by paying a fee through the United States they’re often accepted. most universities have a direct entrance exam that you could just go and sit if you know exactly where you want to go and what you want to do. You can just go and sit that entrance exam. Many universities have that kind of bridging course, the students to go and interact and that will let them then get into university. Yeah, there’s lots of ways, all of them less stressful than the end of year 12 exams we put our children through.

Molly Knight 42:34
Yes, I’ve always thought that was a little insane, actually to put that sort of pressure on, on kids. Okay, it sounds fantastic. Doesn’t sound like there’s a lot of disadvantage to me except perhaps for the parents. For the child it sounds really advantageous. Yeah. Well Karen, thank you. I will stop here because I think we’re just about out of time. But I wanted to thank you very much. It’s a very interesting topic. And where do parents will finish on telling me Tell me where parents go? What’s their first step? If they want to homeschool? Who do they call, you know, where do they connect.

Karen Chegwidden 43:23
So they we’ve got to help One they can call the home Education Association. So they can call our helpline which is one 300. Now, I’m testing myself, I will look at it to make sure I don’t get it wrong because someone will have words to say about that. That’s right in front of me and one second 1300 729 991 . So that’s our helpline. It’s a free service that we provide to the community and anyone who has questions about home education, wanting to know whether they how they start What they need to do specifically where they are, if they’ve got particular questions around registration or just anything homeschooling, you can call that number between 9am and 9pm, I think five days a week and talk to an experienced home educator who’s in there. So that’s a really good place to start. You can, there’s lots and lots of information on our website. So if you go to, you can have a look there you can see a brief overview of what the regulations are, but you can also say lots and lots of resources. So I’ve got a page of free resources that you can find to support your learning all around the internet because there’s so much stuff out there and at the moment, there’s loads of stuff that’s free, lots of companies have made things free during during the COVID lockdown. So you know, if you’ve got them at home and you’re really struggling with that, get on there and have a look at that free stuff thats for everyone.

Mm hmm. Yeah, that’s good advice.

Yeah. One of the other services that the HEA provides to members is discounted subscriptions to educational programs. So, you know, anyone, anyone who’s interested, can join, they can buy those programs for their kids then at a really good discount. I would start there. Lots of support groups on Facebook and all of that kind of stuff. There’s Home Education Australia community page has got thousands of home educators, newbies, old hands, on all chatting together and sharing resources and saying, hey, look, I found this thing. So that would be a good place to connect to.

Molly Knight 45:51
Okay. All right. Lovely. Karen, thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it and I’ve certainly learned quite a bit tonight. So I thank you very much.

Thanks Karen.

Karen Chegwidden 46:03
No worries at all.

Molly Knight 46:04
Good night

Karen Chegwidden 46:05
Thanks so much, bye bye

Molly Knight 46:05
Thanks everyone for joining us. I hope you’ve gained as much information as I have from this talk with Karen.

Are you being manipulated?  This was the subject of a discussion between HAP’s Molly Knight and Barry Bardoe, an information warfare specialist. It was broadcast live via the Health Australia Party Facebook page on the 9th July 2020.

Barry covered the ways in which neuroscience is used to influence and manipulate peoples opinions.

Click on the image below to watch the full video. A transcript can be found below.

Read the full transcript below:

Molly Knight 0:06

Tonight I’m going to welcome Barrie Bardoe, and he’s an information warfare specialist. And I’m very excited about this, because I don’t know a lot about the topic. But what he’s mentioned to me last Tuesday, when we had a little chat it’s really made me think about how we dealt information and what we’re expected to do with it as a community and how it affects our lives. So welcome, Barry, thank you so much for joining us tonight. Could we start off by you telling us a bit about yourself and how you came to get into this profession?

Barrie Bardoe 0:50
Yeah, absolutely. I’ll start off by a little di sclaimer that anything I talk about tonight is very much my own personal views the results are my own personal research. And I’m not speaking on behalf of any person I’ve ever worked for anything like that. And we will talk about purely public domain examples. But I suppose the term information warfare is fairly loaded. So I’m gonna start with the definition of that, which will explain a little bit about what I do and what my background is. According to Dan Kuehl from the National Defense University in the US, information warfare is if I might look at my notes, conflict or struggle between two or more groups in the information environment. So I got involved with and that can take in a big range of things from you know, PR to marketing to disinformation. I’ve been involved many, many years ago in marketing and PR and professional writing and analysis and all those sorts of things and have since worked for governments, military, political and private concerns.

Molly Knight 1:53
So a broad range of experience there,

Barrie Bardoe 1:56
yeah, yeah, there is and I maintain a fairly broad palette. I’m currently doing postgraduate research. And I’ve written a book called “The Secrets of How You’re Being Manipulated And the Power to Fight Back”. It’s not out yet, but that will hopefully step people through. So if at the end of this anyone’s still a bit confused or whatever, there’s, there’s other things I can go and read, because it’s a lot to get your mind around.

Molly Knight 2:20
All right, thank you. Um, let’s start with what is information warfare, and why is it so important that people know about it and what effects it can have?

Barrie Bardoe 2:32
Yeah, that’s an excellent question. And the term warfare is so loaded, isn’t it, but you hear it, particularly, you know, in the corporate, we will know about conventional warfare, but you hear about it a lot in the corporate context, people talking about quite warfare related analogies and how they go about things. And basically, we live in an age where there’s more information, more information sources, more information platforms, I think something like 90% of the data In the world now popped up in the last 10 years. So we’re being deluged with information that is being used to achieve changes to policy, people’s attitudes, etc, etc. And it really is warfare in the sense that you can use it in the military context, obviously, but corporates and private interests and various other non state actors, as I like to say, use this very, very effectively.

Molly Knight 3:27
Hmm. So well, who does use it? That would affect me, for instance, or someone watching? How would it be used in the context of just everyday life for for people?

Barrie Bardoe 3:40
All right, well, I am I’m trying to popularize a variation, which I call ambient warfare. And what I mean by that is not just information but the entire lived environment. And I’ll put it to you that every single decision that people are currently making is the result of th at ubiquitous environment that we inhabit all these different information sources. And there are people who are very good at this job out there who are making sure that policy, the media and mainstream opinion fall in step with their particular goals, and they can be very varied.

Molly Knight 4:17
So, does that mean that the media are told what they can tell the public? I mean, is it that controlled?

Barrie Bardoe 4:28
Look, I sincerely I mean, that’s a very, very explicit analysis. No, that does. I think there’s times when journalists will tell you look I was told to back off from particular topic, whatever, but it’s far more subtle. It’s far more nuanced. And it has to do with shaping an entire worldview. So, you know, some journalists have a worldview that they’ve grown up with, which has been shaped which in turn can be leveraged for particular users names, a lot of times I’m sure they are they’re not conscious of it, or the big problem these days with the speed of the turnover of information is they just don’t have time for in depth journalism anymore. It’s a real problem. And to finish that point, you’ve got to remember that media outlets are generally businesses. They don’t want to piss off, you know, their various different corporate interests, I suppose. So they could be a little bit careful. There’s some things where they can be merciless. And there’s other things where I know I know from being in industry a long time you got to be a bit cautious.

Molly Knight 5:34
And you did mention the use of neuroscience when we had a chat the other night. Can you tell me where that fits into this?

Barrie Bardoe 5:45
Yeah, look, if I could j ust do a quick bit of history. This whole toolkit goes back was probably perfected by Dr. Joseph Goebbels in National Socialist Germany in the 30s. And he he took his cues from British propaganda in the first world war but he also went to corporate America. And he saw how they use catchy slogans to influence and make sure people buy their products or have certain attitudes and values. So I’m gonna ask you a question in turn. Why do women shave their armpits?

People don’t think about that. But in the early part of the 20th century, a certain company that is ubiquitous with shaving products, started a campaign using the media of the day to shame women into shaving, and within 20 years have doubled their market share and 90% of women in western countries were shaving under their armpit, they never used to do that. That was the first really successful corporate information and marketing campaign and it’s changed societal values. So if you look at that, I think that was done with print media. You have to think now about what they’ve got, and how they can change an entire set of cultural assumptions.

Molly Knight 7:06
That’s that’s quite scary when you look at it like that. Because, yeah, I mean, a whole society can be manipulated.

Barrie Bardoe 7:14
Yeah. And and Goebbels realized that he had some he had the new media of the day he had radio and film. And he wanted everybody, and this should shock people a little bit, but he wanted everybody to have a cheap radio. Now, can you think of something else now, that is pretty much the single point of information for absolutely everybody in society. By controlling the point of information, you control the narrative, but the neuroscience thing he realized very early on, there’s a thing called cognitive ease. And it’s very, very simple. You can be as intelligent as you like. But if you hear something repeated again and again, by an authoritative source, you begin to believe it even if it’s completely illogical or against Your values or whatever, and it actually bypasses critical thinking and it’s it’s a well established tactic. So his thing was, you have an authoritative source and you repeat it again and again and again. And, you know, Europe’s most progressive country will suddenly go, hey, let’s follow a genocidal maniac to oblivion, you know, it makes people do crazy illogical things.

Molly Knight 8:21
Hmm. Yeah, okay. Um, so if repeated messages which we get from our iPhone, from television, and so on, it’s it’s almost like, could I use the word brainwashing?

Barrie Bardoe 8:41
Yeah, why not? That’s exactly what it is. Absolutely.

Molly Knight 8:46
So we’re all a mob of brainwashed people running around, jumping up and down about things that may or may not be true.

Barrie Bardoe 8:56
Worse than that on people who are very, very good at this job in the corporate world, will find things that we normal, nice, reasonable people would consider good. And they will piggyback their agenda on the on the back of that. So you’ll be accepting something most people would accept as being a good thing. But their agenda is embedded within that. So it achieves an end that suits their purposes, whilst making you feel good about your values, that’s the trick.

Molly Knight 9:28
Okay, can you do you have an example of what that would look like?

Barrie Bardoe 9:37
Pretty much anything you can think of. I mean, I would put it to you that most people understand what’s meant by the term big Australia. That is, you know, high immigration figures, all that sort of stuff. Most good, reasonable people, like the idea of diversity. They like the idea of inclusiveness. I like the idea of Australia, participating in world culture. But I put it to you And I think the age newspaper ran quite a good article on this recently that the development lobby has leveraged off this to create huge demand for their services. So that we now have basically an infrastructure based economy one in 11 jobs are based in construction. It’s great for creating jobs, etc. But it also means because there’s so much demand, they can bump up the prices as much as they like. So we now have the highest house prices of any western country. I’m not saying that that’s necessarily completely a cohesive and deliberate thing. But it suits a different agenda. That’s an example. There’s plenty more.

Molly Knight 10:39
Mm hmm. Okay, yeah. So corporations use it. Politicians use this as well.

Barrie Bardoe 10:49
Oh, yes. But I think there’s varying degrees of expertise. I mean, I’ll give you a really good example. You know, one of the masters as we’ve seen, I mean, who would have thought that a reality TV star could become a president, but anyway seems to have done it. And he gave a speech where Donald Trump gave a speech where he had done a debate, I think it was in the Republican, you know, lead off to choosing their candidate. And he said, something along the lines of how he’d won the debate, I think 11 times in 17 seconds. And even someone like me, who’s you know, fairly used to this sort of stuff at the end was associating when Trump when Trump it’s that simple sometimes that if you hear something again, and again, you sort of walk away, going oh yeah I think he won that, you know, but it’s generally much more subtle. And it works a lot better if you approach it from a whole lot of different angles. Like if you have a whole lot of different information platforms, saying the similar’ish thing. You start to just accept it and you have to really take a step back and go, is that actually what I believe or is true or whatever?

Molly Knight 11:57
Yeah, um, I mean, I’m finding it very difficult. to decipher truth from fiction in a lot of what’s happening today like, if we can talk about the the lockdowns and

Barrie Bardoe 12:09

Molly Knight 12:09
None of this makes sense because I don’t see pandemic numbers happening. Not to say it’s not a real virus and it’s not happening. But the way everybody is just simply falling into line and a very few people are questioning and everybody’s, you know, got their masks and they’re staying home. They’re doing what they’re told without question. And to me, I just think, how does a whole huge society behave that way? Why does that happen?

Barrie Bardoe 12:45
That’s a really interesting question that speaks to the power of this. And I’ll put a disclaimer in front of this. Like you I’m not suggesting that’s not a thing. And I’m not suggesting that, you know, you shouldn’t behave responsibly or any of those sorts of things. Let’s just talk about the mechanism rather than the actual thing itself. I had a conversation with a colleague, I think the end of last year, and we’re just sort of talking about how long would it take to change society beyond recognition, if you set yourself the goal of doing it. And in National Socialist Germany, I think “Triumph of the Will” was filmed in 1934 they only had a year, and by the end of the year, so it was unrecognizable to what it proceeded. So that was an amazing job back then with the technology of the day. But as you see, we have now all decided on a very different way of living or accepted a very different way of living, based upon the effective authority figures have come out said this is how it is and everybody in the media and everybody has basically agreed. Now whether that’s right or wrong, is not what I’m gonna debate. It’s just a matter. You can see these mechanisms when it comes from enough angles, people will accept it. That’s the extent of my point.

Molly Knight 13:55
Huh? Okay. So yeah, well, from a corporate perspective then if you’re wanting to sell a product, it must be quite easy actually, a bit of advertising repeated advertising because I mean, I know we don’t watch much commercial television, but we do watch the football. And there’s every time there’s an ad, it’s the same ad, the same ad, it’s the same ad. And I guess that’s a part of it, isn’t it?

Barrie Bardoe 14:24
That these days is almost a smokescreen because we’re very, very used to identifying explicit advertising. And most consumers are pretty exhausted by it. But they do it so that you can see. So you can almost say to yourself, hey, I’m not being tricked, I can spot the advertising, what influences you are subtle things embedded in the overall information landscape. Like for example, I had a client corporate client years ago, and we set up countless authoritative looking websites. which had discussion of things which in turn would lead towards their desired outcome. And there’s an example of an election where there’s a site that sort of asked you all these questions and told you which party most closely aligned with your values. And coincidentally or not. This same party was always the result. I can’t think of the exact example but things like that which funnel from multiple sources. So you go I’m too smart I don’t fall for advertising, but meanwhile, your entire landscape of information has been tampered with.

Molly Knight 15:35
So well manipulation isn’t it? It’s, it’s almost hypnotic, really, isn’t it? You you come to a point of belief, even if you don’t believe it.

Barrie Bardoe 15:49
Absolutely. And it is very, very powerful. And the other thing that’s very, very powerful by cognitive ease is incredible. You know, if you if you do that effectively, it is amazing. You get the smartest people on earth. And they’ll be believing a slogan. Absolutely. And that becomes their values. But a really good example, you know, when you think of in an out group theory, if you utilize that properly, if you make the in group fearful, and you have a credible out group, and you project all that fear onto them, it enhances the in group narrative exponentially. And anyone who’s really good at this needs an out group, they need a little group that you can vilify and make to look stupid and hated. And that massively increases the power of their narrative. And just to quickly go back to 1930s, Germany, you know, there was in the 30s there were Jewish Germans who had fought loyally in the First World War and had iron crosses and things like that. And here they are being herded into camps and they’re obviously thinking how could this possibly be happening? And from a logical point of view, they could not pose any security threat to Germany whatsoever they were loyal Germans through and through and this is happening and, you know, people couldn’t get their minds around it. And to think that we are suddenly immune from that would be very naive.

Molly Knight 17:09
So you see that happening now in a communal way a community?

Barrie Bardoe 17:17
Yeah, and look, I would refrain from saying that it’s a big mistake is to see these things as monoliths, like, you know, one particular entity is controlling the whole narrative. There’s lots of competing narratives. And there’s lots of you know, group dynamics, so it can get it’s very messy. The whole environment is extremely messy.

Molly Knight 17:38
Hmm. So who sits at the top of all this? I guess in a corporate world, it’s the boss. And in a government world, it’s the ministers but I me an, I guess I’m confused as to how it, how who decides what it is and where it goes? That’s probably sounds a bit silly question. But sorry.

Barrie Bardoe 18:07
Well, I think it very much depends on who you’re talking about. Because if you’re talking about a corporate entity, I know from experience that often the marketing department like I know, one, cutting edge marketing concern that do predictive marketing and stuff you wouldn’t believe like they know what you’re going to do before you even decided, it’s absolutely incredible. And they will work for different clients and the client might go, it might be as simple as we want them to buy a product, or it might be we want them in general to, you know, except this range of things. Or it might be something far more nebulous, but the client will drive it. And in my experience in some of the corporate entities, the marketing department say the science department, the law department, they’re not necessarily on the same page at all, you know, so it’s not it’s not as simple as a person decides and then it all unfolds. It can be very messy and complicated.

Molly Knight 18:59
Huh, gosh, It’s um, I mean, I guess I feel just for myself, I feel like I’ve just been conned my whole life. You know, I’m nearly 70. And I sort of think, what decisions have I made that have actually been, my decisions?

Barrie Bardoe 19:18
Yeah, well, that’s a very good question. And it’s a really good exercise for the viewers tonight to take a step back. And I defy you to come up with what you think is your most heart held value and belief and ask yourself that question. And look, it could be that you’ve been a bit manipulated into a point of view that nonetheless is a really good, valid, wholesome position to be in. I mean, you know, there’s people who market renewable energy in a fairly manipulative manner. All advertising manipulates to some degree, you know, your desire to do good can be a source of manipulation as well. But it’s a really interesting exercise to step back and go, y ou know, what do I believe? And where did that idea come from?

Molly Knight 20:05
Yeah, because you’d have also obviously, your, your family history, what you grew up with and the values they had that you continue on with. And then you’ve got all the external factors that add to that. So it’s very complex, isn’t it? How we end up where we are?

Barrie Bardoe 20:22
Yeah, I think, you know, leftist, philosopher Louis Althusser talked about how he doesn’t he never really thought he had any real original scope for your own thinking it was either the state or what you’ve described your cultural environment informed what you thought pretty much all the time and you have to really consciously deconstruct that and step back and analyse your your position because there are millions of competing interests trying to guide people in certain directions and the really explicit stuff like you know, stay at home, blah, blah, blah. I think most people can see that that’s explicit. But there’s a million more subtle things in a million different topic areas. And there’s, there’s groups like, you know, in the US election like the alt right, who were incredibly good at co opting the mainstream narrative and turning it back on itself. And they use counterintuitive things like that a little cartoon frog. And the more the mainstream didn’t understand it, the more it reinforced the narrative that the mainstream is out of touch, and doesn’t really get things anymore and mainstream media is obsolete. And there’s one very mainstream journalist who made the mistake of tweeting, you know, what’s going on with Pepe the Frog what is this, and straight off was just ridiculed beyond belief by thousands of people on the internet because he obviously didn’t get it. And the whole point is, it’s not something to be got. And that’s the counterintuitive thing. If you put things out there that people struggle to understand then straight off, you know, you’re making the mainstream look silly. So that was a tactic they use that was very counterintuitive, but very, very effective. So it doesn’t have to be just, you know, mindless repetition of slogans, although that does work.

Molly Knight 22:06
Mm hmm. Okay, so what are the implications for us as a society where discussions on certain topics are considered dangerous? How does the techniques of the the neuro science or the bypassing critical thinking, how does that fit in with well, topics that we really aren’t meant to discuss?

Barrie Bardoe 22:35
Yeah, look there’s certain topics and I’m sure we both know what we’re alluding to. But there are a range of topics now, where if you were to bring them up and just request a rational discussion about them, you’ll be horrendously vilified. And once again to go back to 1930s thing you can imagine some German Jew with his Iron Cross saying, Hey, you know, I want to participate in the social narrative and suddenly you just, you’re the worst person on earth through no fault of your own. And I think you’ll find that most of those things are very, very deliberate information warfare campaigns, which are designed to create an out group that everybody else can fear and hate, and thus increase their narrative. And they spend a lot of time discrediting people who might interrupt that, that process?

Molly Knight 23:24
Hmm. So it becomes it becomes an agenda to focus on for certain groups that I suppose that have a vested interest in a certain outcome.

Barrie Bardoe 23:36
Yeah, absolutely. And look, wherever there’s billions of dollars involved you can bet some of this is going on. And there’s, you know, so many different examples. I mean, ISIS have been brilliant at appending, the dominant Western narrative, not on the battlefield so much, but certainly in the internet, you know, they’ve done an amazing job. And what people don’t see is, you know, they, they hear about the violent stuff they upload but they upload a lot of other stuff. That’s very, very clever that really questions, you know, the West’s moral superiority. So there’s that sort of side of it, you can do really, really cleverly, but the corporate interests try to control the information environment as much as possible. So they control the first page of a Google search and therefore 95% of searches. If people are contrarians, if they’re really well credentialed people, they’ll destroy the credibility of their qualifications. Even absurd things for an entire university is, you know, supposedly not valid because a particular academic questions their point of view, these sorts of techniques, it’s not just one thing. It’s it’s very complicated and they’re very, very good as I described, at setting up seemingly authoritive bodies and websites and advocacy groups, which are really just fronts. And yeah, there’s there’s some fantastic information about that. So when you do a search, and you find these websites that sort of seemed to very solidly support a particular thing often It’s just you know, it’s just informational. It’s just a front.

Molly Knight 25:04
So, but you’d have no way of knowing that, would you? So you could go on believing everything that’s on that website.

Barrie Bardoe 25:13
American journalist Cheryl Atkinson talks about astroturfing, which is the creation of a completely believable, but fake grassroots movement to give the idea, this ubiquitous support for certain things. And of course, you know, she picks on our good friends in the pharmaceutical industry with that, but she’s actually listed a whole bunch of websites, which she believes are astroturfing websites. And, you know, she’s come out she’s done a lot of research on it and whether or not she’s spot on with all of them. I think there’s certainly an awful lot. Hmm. It’s hard, like you said, it’d be impossible to nail down all of them. But if you can maintain that first page of a Google search you pretty much own the inflammation landscape. And that’s a pretty incredible sword.

Molly Knight 25:57
Yeah, it is, isn’t it? we all rely on Mr Google or Dr. Google,

Barrie Bardoe 26:04
they’re not meant to do that.

Molly Knight 26:08
People do it.

Barrie Bardoe 26:09
Oh, of course,

Molly Knight 26:10
Barry, I’ve had friends say trust the experts, the majority experts. And if any expert deviates from the dominant narrative, ignore them. And questioning majority experts is foolish and narcissistic. So what makes someone give away their critical thinking?

Barrie Bardoe 26:32
Yeah, this trust the majority is a really interesting idea. Because, once again, if you’re very good at astroturfing, you can create the illusion of a majority relatively easily. You have to also look at several different factors. Firstly, are people financially benefiting? Are they in a situation where their career is in some way likely to be compromised by deviating and then if someone does deviate? Do they have anything to gain are they well credentialed, and most often if they’ve got a lot to lose, that may not mean that what they’re saying is necessarily true, but it does add a bit of gravitas to it. So you need to look at those factors because now people talk about scientific consensus. Well, Albert Einstein got a letter from 100 colleagues saying back off relativity theory, it’s insane and crazy, making us look stupid. Science, you know, particularly, it’s not about consensus, it is about more often than not individuals making innovative, new look at things. And it’s amazing how many things are predicated upon assumptions that we now take as being, you know, empirically tested now are actually assumptions and without getting controversial, I mean, archaeology for a long, long time, and that’s part of my background, was pushing this idea that glaciers pushed deposits up mountains, which explains why you would say have fish skeletons and you know, on top of mountain in a certain time period or whatever, because archaeologists wanted to be scientific. They didn’t want to buy into what they saw as a biblical religious narrative with this idea of a flood and all that stuff. And glacierologists will tell you glaciers behave very differently. But 450 years that was the orthodoxy, and no one tested it. I can think of other orthodoxies that nobody tests.

Molly Knight 28:23
Yeah, absolutely. All right. So what’s the difference between someone who questions dominant narratives? And one who doesn’t?

Barrie Bardoe 28:38
Threw me with that question, because it’s, it’s a good question, but I guess it’s just do you want to have an individual worldview and be prepared to be wrong, and all of the stuff that goes with it, or do you just want to go along with what you’re told to do? And if you had utter faith that every single aspect of policy and regulation and corporate interests, were all acting in your best interest. That would be fine. If you doubt that. You should start doing a bit of questioning. Yeah.

Molly Knight 29:12
Okay. So yeah. And I think what I see I certainly see a lot more people now. I call it awake because they’re questioning what’s going on. And certainly, the trust of governments is less than it used to be. We question their motives of why they do things now. So I guess that there’s probably, I think a lot more people starting to wake up and question things. So is part of the strategy to manipulate people so they can, like unwittingly go and manipulate their own family. So you know, so we carry it on. We carry on whatever it is,

Barrie Bardoe 30:08
It’s I think, you know, who was it, Lenin, who coined the term “useful idiots”. And in marketing, like in corporate marketing, if you can make someone go and do the marketing for you and not pay them, that’s a better outcome. And a useful idiot idea is you create a mindset where people accept your values and assumptions, and then they go and do all the hard work for you. And that’s why it’s so hard to prove explicit connections with some of this stuff, because people are doing it for free off their own bat. And that’s what to me is, you know, is quite incredible. And just to cover off on that thing with politicians before I would say that, you know, my experience of politicians is there’s undoubtedly some great ones out there that are in it for the right reasons. It is the hardest job on earth and you’ve got to be an expert at absolutely everything. You are reliant upon the people advising you and they do get it wrong. And I think now there’s, you know, we expect our politicians to be perfect. And part of the thing they’re dealing with is a feedback loop with social media where, you know, people are so hysterical about things and so unthinking, and in turn, politicians are put in a really tricky situation where they’ve got to be seen to be doing something. And I don’t know, I think I think it all feeds, it’s, it’s reaching a sort of critical mass of all feeding off each other so quickly, that it’s really, really hard to take the time you need to step back and go, this is good policy or, you know, this piece of research requires another week. because everything’s turning over in such quick timings.

Yeah, it’s very confusing times.

Molly Knight 31:53
it is a confusing timing right now. It’s, I mean, we’re in times that are changing. Every day, and we’ll probably never quite go back to what we had before. Whether that’s good or bad. We won’t know until we move through it, but I think that this is the most confusing time I’ve certainly ever seen in my lifetime. And and it’s quite unsettling, I guess is is a word. I would think what we’re living through now and I think people are wanting directive they’re wanting security, they want to know they’ll be okay. And

Barrie Bardoe 32:42
but that’s not life is it

Molly Knight 32:45
not life, that’s not life

Barrie Bardoe 32:47
I think you make a really good point there that part of the problem. You see this on social media is people now have an almost, I mean, I was talking to my doctor the other day about all of this and he said, You know, people now you know, have this expectation. They’ll be completely safe all the time. And everything’s about managing risk. Like, you know, 400 people died in the last year in Victoria on the roads or something like that. Don’t quote me on that, but a lot. And, you know, when you go on the roads, you are managing risk. Everything you do is about risk. And we’ll all die and all those sorts of things. But I think now there’s this expectation. And a lot of these, particularly corporate interests, really push this idea that, you know, we’ll offer you complete assurance and safety and you won’t have to do anything, it can be lazy, and we’ll take care of it all. That culture is is a real problem. The other thing is disinformation. Now, if you really good information warfare, and you want to discredit people who are causing you trouble, you’ll chuck disinformation in there that by association will make them look ridiculous. And that’s the problem too a lot of people who as you put it as are sort of waking up and starting to also go well if I have been lied to about this, then we’ve been lied to about every other thing. good information warfare has quite a lot of truth in it. So you have truth, but then you put yourself agendas in amongst the truth. So discerning all of that, you know, I implore people to really critically think about what they’re accepting during the waking up process as well.

Molly Knight 34:13
Hmm, it’s really tricky. It’s, it’s really tricky, isn’t it.

Barrie Bardoe 34:18
Yeah,well there’s some, If money’s involved, if billions of dollars are involved, you can bet that somebody is pretty keen to continue making that kind of money. If something, you know, my experience, certainly is when people come up with complex conspiracies involving agencies from all these different countries. I, you know, I really, I can’t buy into that because I know that I don’t want to disparage any government agency, but it is complicated coordinating things on a much lower level, let alone that. And these days, as Edward Snowden showed, just some, you know, all you need is a memory stick and you lose security. So the more people got involved, the harder it is, so Have something really, really complicated that doesn’t have any sort of real logical imperative is very, very difficult, I would imagine these days, but when there’s billions of dollars involved, and you’ve got a really good marketing department and really good lawyers, you just keep at it and spend the money and reap the results I think

Molly Knight 35:20
Yes , and make people want what you’re going to give them.

Barrie Bardoe 35:24
Yeah, even if it’s not good for them, and even if it makes no logical sense, and particularly get them fearful. Fear is a fantastic motivator and you know, once again, going to the present situation, people are beside themselves with fear and, you know, realistically for the average person, they don’t need to be that fearful. By all means, do you know whatever they perceive the right thing to be but you know, that they don’t need to be beside themselves sick with fear. I know people now who are probably going to wind up very ill.

Because moment by moment they’re terrified of what’s going on? Yeah.

Molly Knight 36:00
Yeah, I agree and quite paranoid with it they, you know, wiping their hands every second and yeah, it’s some theories of great controller, I think. Yeah. Can I? Yeah. Yeah. Can I ask you, Barry? What are your thoughts on social media farms? What does that mean to you?

Barrie Bardoe 36:26
Social media. I

Molly Knight 36:27
thought this is a question from a viewer social media farms. I have

Barrie Bardoe 36:34
heard that I would need to clarify the terms. So I could guess what they mean. But I’d need a bit more information for it I think.

Molly Knight 36:42
Okay. No, well, I haven’t heard of it, but social media farms. Okay. send another message. whoever sent that in. We’ll see if we can clear it up.

Barrie Bardoe 36:53
just clarify your terms of reference because I don’t want to talk about something we’re not 100% clear what you mean by that. Heard that expression, but yeah, get him to clarify. Okay. All right.

Molly Knight 37:05
Okay. Another one is are there any tips to empower us to discern the fake news or information from the truth? Well, that’s what we’ve been talking about. Do you have any tips that would allow us more easily? To Yeah, what’s true?

Barrie Bardoe 37:24
I would. I think verification is the challenge of our times as Sharryl Attkisson said, it is the biggest challenge and in my book, which will be out soon, I will step you through it. It’s not easy. I don’t pretend as much. But the first step is to see if there is something to be gained from particular thing, particularly financial gain. If you get a bunch of people, like one of the big problems of our times is key opinion leaders. They are people who have authority, who stand to benefit from a particular thing who speak very highly of it in public again and again, because they are well credentialed and are smart people and well qualified, they are believed and I think as Tom Jefferson The Cochrane Collaboration wrote an article about it in the conversation a while back he said the problem is that they get undue influence and they form a, you know, relationship with marketing where their career benefits and then they say the thing that the market is wanting it builds upon itself. So if it’s someone like you suspect of being like that it has personal gain, obviously, you need to question that. You need to go back to primary sources. People need to stop being lazy, they need to stop reading one sentence and jumping to conclusions, they need to look and see if something is clearly disinformation. You know, like if something is has no real point to it, other than to make an issue unnecessarily complex or it involves a theory that is unprovable. You know, put put your attention where you can actually establish facts. Don’t just got the first four pages of first 12 entries on Google, you know, things like that, and it doesn’t hurt to study a little bit of academic research techniques whilst realising that academia also has very, very high levels of self censorship, I suppose you could say diplomatically.

Molly Knight 39:13
Hmm, okay. Okay. All right. They’re good tips. So, I just want to ask you about your book, when when would that be likely to come out? Because I’m finding this a very interesting topic and I don’t know a lot about it personally. But I would certainly like to know more and be able to be a little more discerning in in how I make how I make not, well, yeah my beliefs or my my choices around what I’m hearing to find the truth. So tell me when is this book coming?

Barrie Bardoe 39:54
I’ve finished the draft of it, and I was going to go through conventional publishing, but I’ve decided to do what about online because that’s the spirit of the age. And yeah, I’m hoping the second, the last quarter of the year should be before the end of the year, hopefully if all things go to plan. And maybe we can catch up again and sort of talk about it when it is available.

Yeah, that would be good enough. I’ve written it in a way where a completely non expert person can step through it, see the history of it, how it works, and then give them a toolkit so that they can go away and have a chance.

Molly Knight 40:32
Yeah, I’d like a chance. I definitely like a chance because this sounds like you’re talking about from the 1930s. I mean, this isn’t new. This is something that’s obviously being used well, close to 100 years to manipulate the populace. Really.

Barrie Bardoe 40:49
I would suggest you that 5000 years ago, someone was writing on a papyrus that Rameses the Second is not a god. This stuff’s been going on a very long time. And like I said, you know that National Socialists in Germany, they got the accused of British propaganda in world war one and this this instances of propaganda throughout history. The difference now is you’ve got a deluge of information from so many different sources. And you’ve got people who have spent a lot of time studying the neuroscience behind it. So it’s much more nuanced. It’s much more clever. It’s much more ambient.

Molly Knight 41:23
Okay, okay. Yeah. All right. Barry, I’ve just had information from this person that said, the farms are a number of fake social media accounts promoting an agenda by distributing fake news.

Barrie Bardoe 41:40
Yeah, absolutely. And there’s probably different terminology I might use for that, that falls under astroturfing. And I it’s more than a thing I mean, one of my triumphs for a corporate client was getting a journalist to plagiarize some material that I put in an authoritative sounding website. pass it off as being authoritative material. And it was you know, it was just copy. And you see that happening all the time. And the more support is seen for a particular position from the more, you know, diverse range of platforms, the most important seems to have. So if you get on social media and you think everybody supports this particular thing you get on Google, you see, first 12 entries are all supporting it. 99% of people are likely to go well, this has ubiquitous support. It’s really, you know, the battle for that first page on Google and social and social media is it is it is literally warfare. You know, it is people there’s a lot of articles now people talking about the weaponization of social media and memes and depending on your perspective, you know, people either right or wrong, but there’s there’s trillions of fake grassroots things going on in social media, which even you know makes it even more complicated. So yeah, I thought that’s what they were getting at. Yeah. Yeah.

Molly Knight 43:06
It’s it’s enormously complex. And I don’t know, I guess I feel a bit. Had. I’ve been had all these years.

Barrie Bardoe 43:19
Yeah, absolutely. And the thing i’d exhort people to is, it’s okay to be wrong. There’s a few things where I look back, you know, maybe an article wrote 456 10 years ago, I’ll go or I cringe, you know, I’ve changed my perspective. I’ve got new information. That’s totally cool. I think what this what they exploit is people who are inflexible, like once you got someone on board, they just won’t incorporate a new idea or new information. And that’s a very interesting human foible. Can I just quickly talk about I reckon the best slogan I’ve heard for a long, long time, make America great again. Now that is brilliant because humans have a natural desire to romanticize the past, which is why folk music exists, you know, the past was always better. So he’s not only tuned in on this American desire to be great, but he also tuned in on this whole romanticization of this mythical past that probably never existed in the first place. But that’s, you know, regardless of what you think of the President, that is genius sloganeering. And corporate interests are incredibly good at these four or five letter words, slogans that just resonate with people, you know, and that becomes their belief and their worldview. That’s, that’s genius when you achieve something like that. Mm hmm.

Molly Knight 44:44
It is. Yeah. And I guess, just going back to the last point is that if you see like on Google, the first 12 points all say the same thing, the first twelve little sites and I I think people want to be part of a tribe they want to be in the accepted the in group. So from that perspective, maybe it’s even easier to manipulate or to get people to think in a certain way because they want to be accepted.

Barrie Bardoe 45:19
Absolutely. And that’s the in out group theory stuff. And people love to be part of that. You’ll notice something like, regardless what you think of, you know, some of these topic areas, you will notice that often you’ll hear a statistic like 97%, you know, agree with a particular thing. You hear that figure or high 90s a lot. Now the idea behind that is it shows an overwhelming majority support for something, but it gives a little pressure valve for those few naughty people who disagree. So if someone comes up is well credentialed, we disagreed and go, Oh, they’re just part of that tiny percentage and you’ve explained them away really quickly and easily while still holding the majority perspective. If you were to claim 100% the second someone to send to look stupid. So you notice a lot of the time on an issue. There’ll be this claim of, you know, 90 plus percent of people.

Molly Knight 46:10
Yeah. I have seen that. Yeah, that’s interesting.

Barrie Bardoe 46:14
Quite deliberate though.

Molly Knight 46:16
deliberate? Yeah. manipulative? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I’m sorry. Just another question coming in.

Yeah. Well, again, just saying how they’re so distressed that they feel that there’s, you know, so much disinformation out there that they’ve not necessarily made a good choice around their stance. So but you know, you said you can be wrong, it’s okay to be wrong, get new information and see where it sits for you. isn’t it, look deeper. Dig deeper into things

Barrie Bardoe 46:59
Yeah. I think that goes back to what we were talking about before that there is an expectation now that you’ll be perfectly safe and you’ll be perfectly protected all the time. And life is about challenges, mistakes, things not turning out the way you want. And you know someone, one of those, you know, very successful people, I forget who it was said that, you know, success is built upon multiple mistakes that you’ve learned from. So if you’ve got the humility to turn around and go on in the light of this better credentialed information from someone who’s you know, not in the pay or whoever or what it whatever your perspective is, if you have the humility that then go this information is probably of higher quality than what I previously was buying into. That’s all part of progressing but I don’t think there’s a single person in the world who would have a completely clean slate for perfect information because it’s not out there anymore. And I don’t know who would and I think even people at the top of corporations are getting disinformation from other corporations and you know, certainly out in, you know, the situation with, you know, groups like ISIS or the alt right or any of those. They’re feeding so much disinformation in there and various governments are and

it’s an absolute quagmire. And I think I read recently, I think, you know, the Pentagon’s fielding 800 cyber attacks a week and a deluge of information that may or may not be reliable that they have to sift through, and that’s overwhelming. So it is very, very hard. And I think people have to release this idea that they’re going to have this completely pure, uncluttered worldview. It will be evolving all the time. And I think you have to have that attitude. It’s always a work in progress.

Molly Knight 48:40
Mm hmm. Yeah. It’s a good way to look at it. I’ve just got another question. Have you heard of nesara? I gesara, I’m not sure if that’s how it’s pronounced nesara / gesara. And is there any truth to it? Do you know what I’m talking about, because I haven’t heard of it?

Barrie Bardoe 49:02
Oh, no, no, you got me on that one. There’s a lot of very arcane stuff out there I was in the company of someone who’s hitting me with a lot of this stuff the other day. And part of me is thinking, Oh, this is disinformation, the other parts thinking I need to go and check on some of this stuff. I don’t profess to be across, you know, every sort of issue on the internet, but I am, you know, very familiar with how you get an agenda accepted.

Molly Knight 49:29

okay. Yeah, it’s really interesting. I’d certainly like to learn more about it. That’s for sure. It’s quite fascinating. Um, okay, Barry, is there any last little message you can can give to our viewers?

Barrie Bardoe 49:44
Um, yeah, I suppose just to reiterate that last point. Don’t give up.

Embrace verification as much as you can, as difficult as that is now. Be, you know, rationally skeptical Whilst open minded, there’s a lovely balance there. And you know, any advance in science is always, you know, trod that line. And be humble, you know? And if don’t, I think there’s a lot of people in the conspiracy theory world who it’s almost like an arms race they become special because they propose something more outlandish than the next person. Don’t be that guy. Be the person who actually goes well, perhaps this isn’t right or this is and have that humility. And yeah, yeah, understand that the mainstream news is best described as news entertainment. So there will be truth in there. There’ll be stuff that’s inflamed. There’ll be stuff that’s editorial lots and lots of sport, you know.

Remain remain open minded but critical.

Molly Knight 50:50
okay, remain open minded but critical. I like that. Thank you. Barrry, thank you for joining us tonight. I really enjoyed the talk. And I hope we can do this again because I think you’ve got probably a lot more to share. And perhaps as we get closer to your book being available, we could we could have another discussion.

Barrie Bardoe 51:09
Yeah, look, I’d love that. And I think as you say, there’s so much to cover, that it would be really good to refer people to say look, this of, you know, here’s this document that’s written in very, very simple, easy to understand terms, it’ll step you through it a little bit more, because there’s so much more to cover. Having said that, just to finish, there’s lots and lots of good stuff out there and, you know, just do a search for it, or information warfare and, you know, see what comes up and read about some of the tactics that are being used and you know, certainly the the corporate world that you know, is astonishing in terms of, particularly using predictive marketing and things like that, where you’re using vast amounts of data to form predictive models of consumer behavior. That’s the cutting edge. Knowing what people are going to do before they’ve actually decided to do it. It’s incredible.

Molly Knight 51:57
scary, I think

Okay, Barry, thank you so much. I truly appreciate your time and the information that you’ve shared with us. And I look forward to your book coming out.

Barrie Bardoe 52:11
Okay, it’s been a pleasure. Thank you.

Molly Knight 52:13
Thanks Barry good night. Bye

What are the benefits of vitamins C, D and zinc?  This was the subject of a discussion between HAP’s Molly Knight and Prof Ian Brighthope. It was broadcast live via the Health Australia Party Facebook page on the 2nd July 2020.

Prof Brighthope gave a full account of how these particular vitamins and minerals benefit the health of everyone and their role in prevention and health optimisation. He also discussed his efforts to campaign widely to get our political leaders, the AMA, the Department of Health and other organisations who decide on health policy to consider the published research that shows how beneficial these supplements can be in the treatment of Covid 19.

Click on the image below to watch the complete interview.

Read the full transcript below:

Molly Knight 0:03
And tonight It’s my absolute pleasure to welcome Professor Ian Brighthope to our live discussion. Professor Brighthope is a medical practitioner who graduated over 40 years ago with a Bachelor of Medicine and Bachelor of Surgery. He originally specialized in immunology, but he decided early in his career to focus on nutritional and Environmental Medicine. And he’s the founding president of the Australasian College of Nutritional and Environmental Medicine. Now I’ve been a fan of the work of Professor Brighthope since I first heard of his work back around 1990 it would have been and having been to several of these talks over the years. I know the information that he’s going to share with us tonight will be of enormous value to everyone. Tonight, Professor Brighthope will discuss the research behind vitamin C, vitamin D, and zinc. He will also address the efforts that he’s made to campaign widely to try to get our government to consider introducing preventive protocols and evidence based natural treatment options for COVID-19. That kind of makes sense, doesn’t it? And hopefully, he’ll be able to give some insight as to why our government just isn’t listening to his incredible expertise, and why the current protocols that we’re using now are being pushed. Welcome, Professor Brighthope, thank you so much for joining us tonight.

Prof. Brighthope 1:33
Thank you very much, Molly, that’s my pleasure.

We can impart some knowledge and wisdom to those who are on Facebook with it.

Molly Knight 1:44
Yes, I’m sure we will. Now. And we’ve really already received many, many questions from emails from my patients and from people in the community. So there’ll be quite a few questions at the end of this. So I hope you you’re up for that. I’d like to start off tonight, I wanted to ask you about your journey from being a medical doctor to becoming such a great advocate for natural medicine. So can you tell me how you made that transition? And has the journey been smooth? Or has it been a bit, you know, rough and difficult at times?

Prof. Brighthope 2:23
Well, I first did a diploma in agricultural science and read some research into foods and nutrition in animals. And that exposed me to the importance of trace elements in particular in the soil, and also natural fertilizers compared to synthetic fertilizers in the production of crops and pastures. And it was also interesting to observe that reproduction in animals was very dependent on on nutrition and, in fact, I was involved In a study to do with reproduction for sort of facilitating reproductive rates in sheep, we found that supplementing the sheep during mating season actually produce more healthy lambs and an increase in twinning in lambs. So other issues around the production of white muscle disease in cattle and sheep, a selenium deficiency, and with that the observance of cardiomegaly a very, very large heart in these animals, it will start with selenium. And I mean, this didn’t make sense to me in terms of human health until halfway through my medical career when I left agricultural science and went to medicine. And I was very disappointed in medicine in my training, because there was very little in the way of the study of nutrition in health. And in my fourth year, I asked Professor of Medicine, about a particular patient an elderly lady lady, being drip fed sugar and salt and given jelly and ice creams a meal I asked about her diet because she was wasting away. And the Prof said, You don’t worry about the diet, her diet, okay, we’re talking about her cancer. Well, you know that, that changed me completely. I said I’m not going to be a doctor like that. But I found it very difficult after I graduated to do anything different, until I was exposed to a very small group of like minded doctors who had formed an association or in the formation of an association. And I joined them and finalized the constitution to this organization. And it was very basic after that, that I was feeling fairly comfortable. I had colleagues who were aligned with me and looking at the nutrition and supplementation of people to prevent and treat illness and disease. So it was a very interesting start, because I, I was not happy with the way medicine was being practiced. In particular just giving drugs and chemicals to sick people without looking at their diet and their lifestyle and exercise themselves and filling them up with salt and fats and so on. It was very, very against what I’ve been brought up as a kid with my grandparents who believed in you know, in garlic and growing your own vegetables, cod liver oil, whatever.

Molly Knight 5:32

Prof. Brighthope 5:35
And so we started a an organization called the Australian college Australasian College of Nutritional and Environmental Medicine in the early 1950s. And from there, we actually looked at all the researchers available, we ran courses for doctors and and other healthcare professionals as well. And that organization since the 19, early 1980s is flourishing up until today. And its getting stronger and stronger. Yeah. But it’s been a rough journey sometimes because as the founding president and president for a long time, I was the focal point for the medical authorities who didn’t like the fact that some doctors were not prescribing medications when they thought they should be. Put it diplomatically? Yeah.

Molly Knight 6:32
Yeah, it’s, um, I mean, I know I’ve been working as a herbalist since 1983. And my journey would be nothing like yours. But there’s been a lot of a lot of rough journeys along the way with authorities that just don’t like what what do we do?

Prof. Brighthope 6:55
Medicine was meant to be a profession, but the medical industry and that includes everything from medications to hospitals to clinics to pathology and investigations. And, and, and procedural work is a very, very big industry a very powerful industry. And if we reduce the amount of illness, sickness and disease in the community, then that industry contracts and a large number of the population are dependent on working in the industry. However, I do believe it’s a lot of work to be done in prevention and health optimization. And what I believe is the utilization of the tools that we have now to produce super health optimal health or for even patients who are very sick to optimize their, their well being so they can have a greater chance of beating their illness and their disease and, you know, being productive members of the community, my colleagues and I’ve seen literally thousands of people achieve this, whether they go to a nutritionist or a natural therapist or a herbalist or a doctor, practicing nutritional, environmental medicine, all of these things should be integrated. And that’s another story about integration, all of these modalities for the benefit of them.

Molly Knight 8:17
Yes, it’s some of the bigger picture is integration and caring for each other rather than the dollar, really. But that’s where we’re at right now in our healthcare system, certainly. And I wonder if we can jump in and can you talk to us about vitamin C because I know the work you’ve done with vitamin C and particularly intravenous vitamin C over the years has been quite amazing. So can you talk to us about vitamin C and I know that there are lots of different forms of vitamin C, and it can be quite confusing. You know which one should you take, is one better than another. And now we’ve got liposomal vitamin C. So, you know, how do people make a choice around what they take is one better than the other?

Prof. Brighthope 9:12
I guess I’m talking to the members of the general public more than to herbalists and doctors, is that correct?

Molly Knight 9:24
I think we’re a bit of a mix, because there’s a lot of practitioners who certainly would be viewing tonight, but there’s certainly a lot of the public as well. So,

Prof. Brighthope 9:34
I mean, basically, when we look at vitamin C, it is really not a vitamin. It’s an acid, an organic acid. And most animals, apart from the human being, the higher apes and the guinea pig, and maybe a couple of other animals, most of them produce vitamin C in the liver for glucose, simple sugar. We have evolved a very large brain that requires all that sugar so we don’t make vitamin C. So that’s very, very simple. We’ve lost the enzymes omega and vitamin C. We have created an environment for ourselves, we’ve come out of the caves, we’re not eating natural organic food any longer. And we don’t have access to high levels of vitamin C in our diet, and we don’t make it. When we’re under stress, we tend to produce things called free radicals or reactive oxygen species. And these free radicals are very dangerous molecules in the body. They are oxidation substances that cause us to oxidize cause our fats to go rancid and cause our water soluble compartments to go rusty if you like. So this is a natural part of, of aging as well. But when we’re exposed to medications and radiation and drugs and trauma, surgery, inflammatory disorders, a whole range of things that actually cause the production of these free radicals we need antioxidants to mop them up and I don’t like the term antioxidant I prefer the term a redox reagent, something that actually takes these radicals and neutralizes them and pulls them away from your system. And the best substance that we have organically for that is vitamin C or ascorbic acid. It is actually the cleaning agent that cleans out all of these radicals that we collect in our systems. And because we don’t make it and because our diets are often deficient in a whole range of nutrients, it’s important to make sure that this redox system or this antioxidant system is in our bodies and functioning well. So this is why I advocate the use of vitamin C to everybody as a supplement so that if you are under stress or exposed to diesel fumes, or you’re taking medications that produce oxidation species that you can actually ensure that you are going to mop them up and mop them up so that they don’t do any damage and a cup of one to 2,000 grams of vitamin C per day is wise for all adults, some people may need more for wellness. And if you get a cold or a flu, then you have to increase it. One of my colleagues in the United States used to talk about a two gram flu or a 10 gram flu or 20 grand depending on how much you needed to feel well, most important thing is if you do catch a virus, the first thing you do is increase your intake of vitamin C and take it every hour until you feel better or until your bowel starts rejecting. I mean, I think we’ll talk about the the side effects of vitamin C, the side effects of big doses of vitamin C, are wind, loose bowel’s and chronic good health. So those three sided one which is highly desirable, is worthwhile if you’re going to prevent yourself from suffering from a severe cold or a severe flu-like illness or any viral illness for that matter because it has anti-viral activity. It’s a very one. It’s a wonderful molecule because it works at so many levels in the body. It works for detoxification, it works on the immune system to actually help the white blood cells to kill viruses and bacteria and fungi and this sort of thing. It even works on the central nervous system and reduces the oxidation and inflammation that occurs in the central nervous system. So supplementation orally is what I recommend for everybody. Now, this is not a this is not a medical recommendation for everybody out there. I recommend you go and see your health practitioners who know about this for for the best advice. And you mentioned liposomal vitamin C liposomal vitamin C is better absorbed and some of the other forms of vitamin C. It’s more expensive. And if you can, if you can take the liposomal vitamin C then by all means it is better absorbed. But whether it’s more effective clinically or not, there is no hard evidence to that effect. There’s there’s the other forms of vitamin C or a ascorbic acid the acid form or sodium ascorbate a salt, magnesium ascorbate, which is magnesium combined with vitamin C, calcium ascorbate calcium combined with vitamin C, you can take mixtures of all of these and quite often you find those mixtures in tablets and powders in health food stores and pharmacies. And

Molly Knight 14:32
Now, I was just going to say, um, what actual action does vitamin C have against viruses? Is there something specific that it does?

Prof. Brighthope 14:42
Yes, it does have a direct antiviral effect. It does change the nature of the coat of the of the virus, the protein coat if you have significant levels and concentrations in blood. But more importantly, if the virus has got into your system, it actually potentiates the effects or improves the effects and activity of the white blood cells of your lymphocytes. The white blood cells are the cells that fight bacteria and viruses and they, they engulf them, they the white blood cells take the bacteria and viruses into the cytoplasm into the plasma into the, into their body. And in there, they have little bodies that actually produce hydrogen peroxide and vitamin C potentiates the production of hydrogen peroxide. And vitamin C becomes a radical itself. So it actually acts as a very powerful oxidizing molecule. It’s it’s fascinating that it can act in so many ways. And so the white blood cell can actually kill off the, the virus by producing hydrogen peroxide which is a very, I mean, it’s the bleach you use to put on your hair and so on is a very powerful oxidating substance, h2o to the oxygen. It really is. It becomes a radical. And the electrons in that radical just fire at the, at the virus and it’s gone. It’s dead.

Molly Knight 16:18
Zap it! Yeah, so it’s, it’s certainly something that I’ve used a lot in practice and it’s yeah, it’s little used in well certainly not medically use it, they, they don’t even think about it. And it’s really sad because it’s such a vital vitamin for human health.

Prof. Brighthope 16:43
I mean, if you go for 54 days without vitamin C, you end up with a disease called scurvy, which is the where you start getting very easily bruised and bleeding from the gums, you bleed old wounds open up or disease and start bleeding And you will eventually die from scurvy. And that was discovered by a fellow called James Lind on the HMS Salsibury.a ship at sea. He did a blind study where he gave the men who were suffering from scurvy. He fed them pork, he fed them vinegar, he fed them saline from the sea and he fed them the juice of limes. And that’s how the cure for scurvy came about because there was something in the limes and of course in limes and other citrus fruits, you’ve got that vitamin C. But we’re walking around many of us are walking around with subclinical scurvy. That means we don’t have enough this is why we we feel tired. We feel aches and pains. We get this, this furrow in the brow, you’ve got this grey compl exion, you don’t feel very well at all. A significant number of people I see in Collins Street from time to time.

Molly Knight 18:05
Mm hmm. Yeah. That’s interesting, isn’t it? Yeah. The fatigue aspect is interesting because most people are tired, or definitely tired.

Prof. Brighthope 18:14
Oh, it’s natural thing to get tired of my time, not doing during the day. And then sodium ascorbate we use in large doses intravenously. And this is when somebody is ill, and it doesn’t matter what they’re ill with, because any illness will produce reactive oxygen species or free radicals. And they need to be they need to be controlled, they need to be mopped up and they need to be sunk away in either a thing called glutathione or vitamin E or some other compartment of the body where they can’t do any more damage. So the vitamin C sits in the middle, it takes the electron from the free radical and it gives it to vitamin C or sorry vitamin D or glutathione some other pathway in the body that actually mops up the in the rubbish. Its like a whole lot of dust and dirt in your house causing havoc inside, you’ve got to get rid of it. So the vitamin C is there at the doorway. It picks up all the dust and pushes it out into your rubbish bin. Simple.

Molly Knight 19:21
Interesting its a broom. So you mentioned vitamin D. So let’s talk about vitamin D. There are a couple of different forms of it again, what’s the difference? Well between D two and D three and is there a better form to take and is it something that people should take all the time or just when they’re a bit crook or just during winter? What’s your thoughts on that?

Prof. Brighthope 19:47
In this context, the best form to take is vitamin d3, no other. The body makes vitamin D by exposure of the skin to the sun to ultraviolet light B or UVB. And the molecule in the skin that is used is cholesterol. So your cholesterol in the skin, the UVB light falls on cholesterol and converts it into a form a different form of cholesterol, which is a precursor to vitamin D. This precursor goes to the liver, it’s acted on by the liver, and you’ve got to have a healthy liver. It goes to the kidney, and the kidney then converts it into its third stage and that is vitamin D3 and that is the active component in the body. Vitamin D3 is not a real vitamin. It is now classified more accurately as a hormone. Because very small concentrations of it have a profound effect on so many aspects of our well being and health. Not just for healthy bones but just for healthy skin, hair and nails and teeth. But it has a very important role in the immune system and defending us against not only viruses and bacteria, but also certain hormone de`pendent cancers like perhaps prostate cancer and breast cancer. So it’s very, very powerful and important molecule. It’s like basically like taking the energy and information from the sun, delivering that information to the deepest cells within our, within our being. And every cell in our body, including the cell membrane, and nuclear membranes that hold down our chromosomes and genes together. We’ve got receptors for vitamin D. So in that respect, it’s a very powerful and ubiquitous molecule. It’s everywhere. It’s so important to have enough of it in our systems, just like the vitamin C. I’ve elected to look at a campaign with regard to helping us defend ourselves, not just against this virus called COVID-19 or SARS cog nine, book 19, whatever you whatever classification, most people just refer to COVID but the next pandemic and the pandemic after that and the pandemic after that. And this is not new. Cod liver oil has been known for centuries to prevent these these outbreaks of infections. And even during the plague in Melbourne and Sydney, the turn of last century from 1800 to 1900s people died from the plague, but those who did better and survived were the ones who were taken out of their beds and put into the sunshine. The same for the TB sanitarium it had a balcony in the hospital so it can take patients out and put them in the sunshine. That’s when you get the better results. Why? We know now it’s Vitamin D we know so much more about it than we had in the past. So D3 is the best form to take. Most of us as kids back in my generation, we got cod liver oil during the winter.

Molly Knight 23:22
Yeah. It was disgusting. Still is actually

Prof. Brighthope 23:27
We had for our kids we had halibut oil capsules because they were more potent in vitamin D and vitamin A than the cod liver oil, 4000 units of A and 400 of D so they pop two little of these capsules in their mouth. Virtually no infections, no antibiotics, my kids, basically healthy all the way through. It’s sad Molly, that it really is sad that we have moved away from nature. And we require synthetics from our medical professionals which should know better, but they don’t because of an attitude, the attitude being, you get sick and go to the doctor and he’ll fix you up. And we’ve got all of these marvelous medications Well, we are par excellence in terms of a queue in defending medicine. In Australia. We’ve got the best doctors, the best hospitals and the best equipment and so forth or so we think we have. And so we say we have, but we do have a very, very good disease care medical system, but we haven’t. We haven’t. We don’t have a healthcare system. You know, you’ve got you’ve got to do your own health care yourself in this country, like, go to a nutritionist or natural therapist or herbalist or a doctor doing nutritional medicine, and you have to pay for it. And it’s not rebated, whereas doctors like yourself should be rewarded for keeping people healthy but the illness system requires a certain amount of disease. And that’s a that’s a fact of life. And this is why we’re in the situation we are now because there’s been, or despite the fact there’s a huge amount of research in vitamin D and vitamin C and zinc, what we’re talking about tonight, massive amounts of basic research, but all we all we need is intelligent people like yourself and your and our colleagues. To actually translate that information into practical use. Translational work is so important. If you see somebody with a deficiency, you correct the deficiency or low levels of nutrients you correct them. You know, you don’t, we don’t wait for a double blind, placebo controlled study for every individual with a disease because we just will never have it and we need to be, we need to be pragmatic and practical and, and also be safe, effective and ethical. In our dealings with the you know, the people who are listening to us tonight I’m sure most of the people listening to us tonight do appreciate the importance of self help and and taking responsibility for their health.

Molly Knight 26:11
Yes, I think in the the old first do no harm is hidden a little, isn’t it? Ian, just with vitamin D. So if we go out into the sun, can we get enough to keep our body going? And I would think that by using all the sunscreens we’re actually counter productive to what we need from the sun with our health if we’re covering up our body with chemicals, but can we get enough just by going out in the sun in summer, for instance, to last us through winter?

Prof. Brighthope 26:48
In ideal conditions, No, we can’t. We can’t do that. Because we’ve moved away from you know, good sunshine and reliable sunshine we’ve moved you know, either far north of the equator and south of the equator, as human beings we’ve migrated away from those parts where we get a lot of sun although Tasmania gets a lot of sun a lot more sun than Victoria, but it’s too cold to go out in it. And we, I mean, we live in caves, we’re even worse off than the cavemen because cavemen left their caves and went out and foraged for food. We go from one cave, our home to another cave, our office or workplace. So we very rarely see enough sun, we need more, we need a half an hour, and we need to expose our arms, our legs and our face v for a reasonable period of time when the sun is at its zenith or close to its zenith without being burned. And, you know, a young white male can manufacture up to about 20,000 international units a day by doing that, and the amount that we have allowed in this country to take as a capsule is 1000 units, so supplements are very low in in dosage form here. There is another supplement you can take once a week 7000 units but still, thats only 1000 units a day and it’s pathetic. Dark skinned people and people who cover themselves with clothes, a lot of clothing and that expose themselves certain sectors of the community like female Muslims they they don’t expose their body to enough sun to get any vitamin D and relying on your diet for it from meat and eggs and milk and an oily fish is just not enough and it’s not scientific these days. You know, when we know that the majority of the population in many countries are low or deficient in vitamin D. We should be doing it more scientifically and that is measuring the amount they’ve got in the blood because that’s an indicator of what they may need. And to get somebody up to normal you may need to give them 5000 to 10,000 units a day to get them to a level of vitamin D in the system that’s going to be protective against acute viral infections and and give them optimal levels. You know, long term doses of 50,000 units or higher may may produce some forms of toxicity, but 4000 or 5000 units a day during the winter will protect you against a lot of infections. And we know that. The doctors that I work with and my groups around the world and we’re not just a group in Australia, but we’ve got people everywhere in nutritional medicine, including even in China. They are all in agreement about the dosages and forms that I’m talking about tonight. So it’s not just an idea that I’ve got it’s basically very well established and entrenched in in nutritional medicine and that we don’t get enough from our diet and many countries around the world and officials in many countries around the world, including Europe, UK, agree that supplementation is important. People over the age of 65 in Germany in the Scandinavian countries it most people supplement. It’s not a decree by government either, although some governments insist that people supplement even in England, Scotland and Ireland now. Great Britain, and the governments are telling people to consider supplementing with vitamin D because of the the the evidence that it’s effective for immunity and covid. I don’t know what the question, was now.

Molly Knight 31:03
Going out in the sun getting enough, I think we’re way behind the times down under here with what to do with nutrition.

Prof. Brighthope 31:12
Even a colleague of mine in India has got philanthropists supplying vitamin D to the poor in India via the Red Cross. The government in in Egypt has supplied vitamin D to all of the frontline health care workers.

Molly Knight 31:32
Makes sense?

Prof. Brighthope 31:34
It does, it makes a lot of sense. When you look at the overall literature but it’s not just looking at the the medical and scientific literature Molly, it’s actually listening to the people out there in the front line who have actually had the experience. I’m not talking about, you know, just one generation I’m talking about, you know, 40 years 50 years of experience, you know, high level experience in clinical practice, people have been doing this, but still there’s this massive pushback. From doctors.

Molly Knight 32:10
Well, Big Pharma the dollar big business. Yeah, it’s very frustrating. I’ve always found it very frustrating. Um, okay, so a couple of thousand milligrams of vitamin C four or 5000 milligrams of vitamin D. What about zinc?

Prof. Brighthope 32:29
Oh, sorry, units of D. Easier to think in micrograms. But just think about units 4000 C, 4000 milligrams of C, 4000 units of D. This is for the period during going through COVID. And, and of course, if you do know, if you’ve got anybody in a nursing home or institution, make sure that they get their vitamin D even go to the administration of these organizations and say look, we’ve had deaths in these institutions, you should be given advice to supplement your elderly people, if you don’t want to supplement, then at least measure their blood levels because if you find that their blood blood levels are low, then they will need supplementing. And there’s a legal requirement there is a there is a there you will if somebody is in a, a, an aged care home, and they’re deficient in vitamin D, and they die. I think the management and ownership of the of those organizations and the medical people responsible could be culpable. So, you know, I think there’s going to it’s going to have to be, I think, accountability applied to various organizations around the world. And that’s all I’ll say about that because we rely on our governments and health departments and training organizations for healthcare practitioners and the World Health Organization for advice. And I must say there’s been a distinct denial of effective therapies that we’re talking about tonight by these organizations. And for the sake of humanity, we have been let down by the World Health authorities as a race. As human beings, we deserve better. And there’s no there’s no antiviral agent that affects these viruses. And always the vaccines, like the cart before the horse and all the stable door the horses bolted. you close the door stable door after the horses bolted to try and do something after the event with a vaccine. And it’s just not good enough. I mean, I’m not being overly critical. I’m being realistic about this. We have information, we have enough information to defend ourselves against these viruses. And even if it’s 50% effective, or 20% effective or 10% effective, we will save lives. Why? Why are we continuing to watch the authorities and ignoring the pleas and I’ve actually sent letters to the authorities pleading with them to make some announcements. And the next day I find somebody on television is crying on television because they’re lost their gran. Simply because gran was in a in a nursing home or institution. And she didn’t have her vitamin C and vitamin D levels mentioned measured.

Molly Knight 35:56
Ian do you have an idea or a thought about why the WHO and the authorities are taking this stance? Why do you think because to me, it makes no sense that they would do this.

Prof. Brighthope 36:11
It’s an attitude. As I as I mentioned before, I think we grow up thinking that doctors going to heal everything for us. And then we’ll go to the doctor, we’ll get an antibiotic and we’ll get some cortisone and the problem will go away. But doctors are trained to think and act in terms of disease. They’re not trained to think and act in terms of prevention. I mean, statins, for example, patients who’ve got cholesterol, there are far better ways of dealing with impending cardiac problems than than giving somebody a statin. And I won’t go into that now, but or anti inflammatories for for inflammation, inflammatory disorders, there are naturally occurring anti-inflammatories such as Kirkman, for example. And just changing one’s diet. I mean, these are very simple approaches or even just some exercise for inflammatory disorders. But this is not it’s it’s a little bit harder than just writing a prescription. And I think we we’ve lost contact with nature. We certainly have lost contact with nature. And we only command nature by obeying her. Many of the things that we’re doing, we’re disobeying her with the way we live sedentary lifestyle, the alcohol, tobacco and the synthetic drugs, the sedentary lifestyle. There’s so many things that humanity is doing to destroy itself and we’re doing it at a rapid rate. And we’ve got to put a brake on it. I think there’s a there’s a consciousness now like there was a consciousness in the 1960s when I grew up, and there’s a consciousness now amongst especially the younger people that we’ve got a planet we’ve only got one planet to live on, and we’re destroying it, and we’re destroying it at a rapid rate. And these people who think go to Mars and live and I mean, they’re almost I mean to me, that’s almost schizophrenia. You know, schizophrenia is a denial of reality, delusions of grandeur, you know, believing things that are there that aren’t really there. And it really is a form of mind illness, if you like, and many of the authorities have got this. And it’s, it’s almost infantile, the way they defend the positions that they take when logic tells us that there are different ways and I tell my students that you don’t follow your leaders and don’t listen to your leaders, including people like myself, who might think they’re your leaders, you use your common sense. You always ask the questions and dig deeper and that’s when you find the truth but I am I have forsaken governments around the world, we need better leaders than what we’ve got. Because when this when this whole thing COVID started, we were told it’s a pandemic. Yes, it is. But it’s it’s very, very, it’s not as bad as the next one there is going to be. This is just a dress rehearsal for the real one. And we got to shut them down next time as well. I don’t think so. We were told it’s a war and that we’re going to be working all together and be inclusive. Well, as far as being inclusive is concerned, people, like me around the world have been totally excluded from decision making by government and healthcare authorities. I mean, are we crazy. I don’t think so. I mean, I’ve got hundreds of thousands of articles dealing with health care in another way. And it’s to do with a lot of its to do with nutrition A lot of it’s to do with the environment you know. Why did the people in northern Italy have such a high death rate? One they were elderly, two they lived inside, three they were very close to freeways and more pollution, four they smoked, five, they drank too much, six many of them were on ACE inhibitors blood pressure drugs,

Molly Knight 40:35
A cocktail, isn’t it?

Prof. Brighthope 40:37
And you know the underlying thing of course, i mean is that they’re low in the very important building blocks to support their immune system, not boost their immune system, just support it with basic levels of C, D and zinc etc.

Molly Knight 40:57
The basics yeah What about zinc Ian talk to us about zinc? What do you recommend there?

Prof. Brighthope 41:06
Zinc is a very important trace element is quite often deficient in populations that have high intakes of refined carbohydrates such as sugar, white flour products and alcohol. Because it’s washed out of the system. it is involved in over 300 different enzyme reactions. It’s a cofactor for enzymes in our body, and enzymes are proteins that make the chemical reactions in the body work faster and more efficiently. And so if we don’t have enough zinc, then these reactions these enzyme reactions just don’t work very well. And that applies all the way through to our genes and our chromosomes. Our genes and our chromosomes require zinc dependent DNA repair enzymes so we can repair any mutations in our in our in our genes. If we have a mutation in our genes, just the right sorts of proteins, for supporting tissues and for, for the enzymes that are made of proteins, so we end up with systems that cannot function properly when we’re looking at the immune system, which is very highly dependent on zinc immune system doesn’t function very well at all. So the immune system requires zinc and there are many studies now that show that just seeking supplementation can reduce inflammation in the throat, reducing the rates of colds, reduce the severity and duration of colds, and, and many other viral infections as well. It also protects us against bacterial infections. So it’s not again, nonspecific defensive agent like the vitamin D and the vitamin C. I’ll just explain two aspects of the immune system. We’ll come back to zinc in a minute Molly, but there’s the innate immune system that we inherit, there is the acquired immune system, that part of the immune system where we actually get an infection or receive a vaccine, and we produce antibodies that’s acquired immunity. That’s after life. The innate immunity is what we’re born with, we developed that in the womb. And as soon as we’re born, we’re exposed to viruses and bacteria, our innate immune system starts producing antibodies to these. We also receive anybodies from our mother’s breast milk, which protects us and there’s a close relationship between the innate and the inherited sorry, the innate and acquired immune system and they speak to one another. And then there are chemicals produced by the innate that help with the acquired immunity. This relationship is very, very important. And this relationship depends a lot on the nutrients that we’re talking about tonight. If we don’t get zinc during enough zinc from our mother during pregnancy or in the breast milk, we end up with immune problems and deficiencies of immunity. And that’s when we see all of the infections. So if our early diet consists of Coca Cola and sweets and doughnuts and this sort of thing, then we’re actually really stressing the immune system to the point that Okay, you’ve had five antibiotics this winter, you can expect probably 10 next winter if we don’t, and this is sad you know, that we do so much damage to ourselves and our children until it affects not only their immune system, but their behavior as well.

Molly Knight 45:02
So Ian you mentioned that you had written to ministers and government officials. Can you tell tell us more about that? I mean, as a person in the community, I often feel very helpless in how I could possibly get change in our government or get some of these officials to actually wake up and make a decision with information that isn’t necessarily what they’re what I believe they’re told to say or do. What have you done? You’ve written letters, have you spoken to people? What sort of responses have you had from the people that are meant to be there to protect us?

Prof. Brighthope 45:54
Well, I know some of these people. I’ve met some of the senior people in the government, the federal government here. To all intents and purposes, they’ve ignored my letters. And I’ve sent them the information. I’ve written to the Prime Minister. I’ve written to the health minister many times. I’ve written to the chief medical officer. I’ve written to the president of the Australian Medical Association who actually trained at the College of Nutritional Medicine and should know better. I’ve written to all the officers of the Royal Australian College of General Practitioners. I’ve written to members of parliament on both sides, labor and liberal. I’ve sent letters to the unions including the health care workers union. I’ve sent letters to some of the larger business corporations. It seems to fall on deaf ears. People think because you’re advocating for something natural that you’re anti vaccination. And the issue here is the emotional side of the vaccination. And I’m not going to get into that debate tonight. But everybody’s waiting. But no longer waiting for an effective antiviral agent because the most recent antiviral agent that’s been taken up by the United States costs $10 for a course of the drug, but it’s being sold for over 4000 US dollars. So that’s the most recent antiviral. The other one was hydroxychloroquine, which in sick people at high doses will kill them in the early stages, low dose probably helps them. So we’re left with the vaccine, and we’re not going to have a vaccine for quite some time, although there are 100 or more companies around the world experimenting with vaccines and usually the recovery rate of that is around about 5 percent. So there may be five or 10 companies that actually produce a vaccine Whether it’s safe, whether it’s effective, I don’t know. But we don’t know. We know that the vaccines that have been manufactured for SARS in the past, have had serious side effects, very serious side effects not only when they’ve been given but also when a person has been exposed to the wild virus just after the vaccine has been given. So I hope that they will come up with some safe and effective vaccine for the majority of people who want it. But I also believe that there should be an opportunity for those who want to achieve wild virus immunity through the use of defense mechanisms that we’re talking about tonight, C, D and zinc, that we can achieve some degree of relief from this virus. I also point the finger at the research establishment and the clinical establishment who have ignored all of the literature and the science to do with vitamin C and D and zinc. They are culpable. They should have been doing work on this because we knew it wasn’t a matter of when the pandemic was going to hit us but it’s a matter of I’m sorry, it’s not a matter of if, but a matter of when. And my question is they’re getting closer and closer. Now we’ve had SARS, we’ve had swine flu, we’ve had MIRS, we’ve had bird flu. And the next one may not be the dress rehearsal. And how far off is it? With this current one over the last few months, mutating, virus mutating at least seven times? Is it going to be less potent, less virulent? Or is it going to be more virulent? We don’t know. But we’ve got to be prepared and we fail. We plan to fail, because we fail to plan this one. And we’ve been pretty lucky here in Australia, you know, we got in early, we didn’t get in early enough. We had, of course, the Ruby Princess cause most of the trouble. But we’ve been fairly lucky in coming out of summer when it started here. And so I think a lot of people probably had reasonably high levels of vitamin D. We don’t know if we’ve got immunity to it, we’re still testing vacuum flasks, but we don’t know accurately how many people have had it, how many people will be walking around who are asymptomatic and carrying the virus and actually now have their own acquired immunity to it. But I do believe that if we could, we could implement a program over the next four weeks starting in two weeks time to achieve a defense for everybody in the country, simply by the government putting its hand in its pocket, not spending billions of dollars on some of these other programs. But perhaps half a billion dollars at the most and giving everybody seeking and educating the population about how to defend ourselves because we’re talking about a couple of hundred billion dollars to defend ourselves. From a military point of view, we’ve got to have our own internal defenses as well and protect the public and, and especially those who are vulnerable and high risk in the community. And it’s just not my opinion. One of my colleagues in in the UK works in Harley Street. We agreed this could be turned around globally. In six weeks, he believes four weeks. I’m a little bit more pragmatic things a bit. Things don’t work that fast. But I even made inquiries with the vitamin industry Do we have enough vitamin C and vitamin D in the country and the vitamins industry said, yes, we can ramp it up, but we’re dependent on importing vitamin C and vitamin D from China. So we’ve got to stay from China as well. But in Wuhan, I’ve been to Wuhan probably about 25 or 30 times and professionally got colleagues in the US who work with the doctors in Wuhan and when it broke out in Wuhan, there was a truck a couple of truckloads of vitamin C taken into Wuhan and the doctors were using vitamin C intraveneously there and getting very good results. The Chinese have a culture that’s a little bit different to ours, you know, they appreciate so they will, they will use anything that they see that works. They won’t wait for a particular population of people with COVID to test vitamin D and take six months to 12 months to produce a paper thats published and tell the world they have discovered something. I think we’ve got a lot to learn, and our authorities have got a lot to learn, they’ve got to open their minds up, otherwise, when it comes time for accountability, who’s going to be held accountable? Who?

Molly Knight 53:21
And that time will come Ian I think I think there’s such a lot of disharmony in the community around and distrust with our authorities. It’s, it’s coming.

Prof. Brighthope 53:31
Molly, I know that my information got through to the task force in Canberra, because my local member actually told me that my letters were getting through to the health minister, the chief medical officer, and the others there, but did they bother to communicate with me? No

Molly Knight 53:51
It’s very disappointing.

Prof. Brighthope 53:53
Well, it’s a disgrace because is this is a democracy, are we all included? And it’s not as if I’m not known by them. And it’s it’s either doesn’t matter to me, but you know, another person may regard as an insult or an offence. I how I see it is it’s very sad situation for humanity when our leaders don’t listen. All they listen to is the information coming from a particular sector of the medical profession. We just don’t believe in natural healthcare, who had not beein in training in it, but make decisions about it

Molly Knight 54:44
Doesn’t make sense,

Prof. Brighthope 54:46
No it doesn’t? Well, when when you consider that there, possibly trillions with at least billions of dollars being poured into vaccines and the amount of lobbying that goes on from the big companies, they make sure that the the the advisors are getting their advice so that the leaders can make decisions based on biased advice. And we also have a media in the country that’s also very biased, including the ABC. It’s a very biased media. There’s so many journos. I mean, only I’ve only met one or two really honest journalists who really want to get to the truth of the matter. One of them was, was with the ABC and her show was shutdown that was Catalyst in she exposed the truth about statins. So, we, we don’t as it’s been said in the past, many times the first casualty of war is the truth. And somebody else once said the only way to deal with a pandemic is the truth.

Molly Knight 56:05
We’re not seeing a lot of that Ian are we?

Prof. Brighthope 56:06
No, unfortunately. But I think we’ve been pretty lucky. I just feel very sorry for those of us who’ve lost their loved ones because they they could have been saved. There are doctors in the US, there are doctors in in some of the Middle East countries and there are doctors in China who are giving intravenous vitamin C and getting very good results. But the intensive care specialists here refused to give intravenous vitamin C. Because there’s been some successes, and they don’t want to admit that they’ve been wrong

Molly Knight 56:46
There could be a lot of that wouldn’t they’re definitely ego and yeah.

It’s very distressing. I find it very distressing.

Prof. Brighthope 56:59
There is some light at the end ofhe tunnel we’ve just got to shine it on the powers that be or change the powers that be

Molly Knight 57:07
Yes, yes change we need change. I agree. I couldn’t agree more and I think probably most of the population agrees as well.

Prof. Brighthope 57:18
The cause of death in Australia and America, one of the top causes of death is iatrogenic its fear physician induced, it’s the wrong diagnosis the wrong drug. And, and this is a fact of life. And we estimated in integrative medicine 80% of people would be far better off if they reduced or stopped their medications and went on a number of different vitamins. And it’s like changing diet and went for a walk. With a pet. You know, it’s easy, right? It was good prescription for a pet friend of mine does So,

Molly Knight 58:01
yeah, it’s, well, the whole system would collapse. There’s so much money involved in medicine and healthcare.

Prof. Brighthope 58:10
There is and we’ve all got vested interests in it. I mean, if you’ve got a superannuation fund more than likely that the superannuation fund has got shares in drug companies, the most profitable companies in the world. So we’ve really gone down.

Molly Knight 58:27
Yep, down the gurgler big time. We need a reset. Everything needs to be looked at and reset every country around the world.

Prof. Brighthope 58:39
Look, I agree. And I think the force is not going to come from the powers that be or those who are experts. The force is going to come from the public, who become more and more informed.

Molly Knight 58:52
Yes, absolutely. Couldn’t agree more. Ian let’s move on to some of the questions that people have sent in because we’ve got quite a few of those. Now, the first one was if you contract COVID-19, what is the best course of action? I think we’ve probably covered that. But is there anything you want to add to that?

Prof. Brighthope 59:15
Well, hopefully, if you can track it it is only going to be a sniffle or a mild cold because you would already be taking vitamin D, vitamin C, and zinc. If you haven’t been and you can track it, then you go straight on to it. I’ll go and get the vitamin D levels measured. The government in its wisdom stopped rebates for vitamin D testing some time ago. Doesn’t make sense, but go figure. Or, and if you’re low, you might need to go up to 10,000 units a day but do it under the care of somebody who knows what they’re doing. If you start getting a cough, be careful. If you start getting short of breath, and you think you may need to be hospitalized. The first thing you do is get some intravenous vitamin C from a doctor who gives it or increase your dose of vitamin C to 10,000 20,000 milligrams per day. Or until you get loose bowels or until you feel better or it has improved. And if you get worse and you start coughing, you’ve got a fever and you’ve got shortness of breath, it’s not being relieved that and you’d be admitted to the hospital, I’d demand that the hospital start giving you some intravenous vitamin C. And if you’re low indeed, they can give you an injection of vitamin D a bolus dose, maybe 50,000 units or even 300,000 units depending on (indecypherable) and of course, if you’re taking your zinc as well, and you’ve stopped sugar, white flour, products, alcohol, and anything with chemicals in it. And, you know, get really into your fresh fruits and vegetables and perhaps oily fish in your diet. If you know somebody who’s going into intensive care, you’ll get pushback from the intensive care specialists. My suggestion to people is you may need to seek legal advice in that situation and have your lawyer talk to and go by the doctors. And I don’t mind. I don’t mind speaking my mind here because that some of the doctors have seen people’s lives saved in intensive care. There’s a couple of 60 minutes reports from New Zealand about a decade ago, where a gentleman was going to be taken off life support after being on it for six weeks. He was unconscious, he had lung whiteout he had renal failure and he also had hairy cell leukemia. And the doctors over there refused to give him the vitamin C until the family went to the lawyers. The lawyers insisted on it being given and in three days his lungs started clearing and he was taken off life support. He’s still alive.

Molly Knight 1:01:54
Oh, gosh.

Prof. Brighthope 1:01:56
Experts around the world said this gentleman didn’t have a chance of surviving. And still the doctors who witnessed that don’t have a level of inquiry that I would say should be there for somebody who’s been scientifically trained. Very, very, very sad. so shameful. It is shameful making judgments about people who should know better. But that’s the situation if you’re put under, If you’re given oxygen, then you need a lot of vitamin C because the oxygen produces oxygen radicals free radicals. And if you’re put on a ventilator, then your relatives should start praying hard because the ventilators actually increase the risk of death. Mechanical ventilation, putting a tube down. That’s when you really do need very, very high doses of vitamin C intravenously. You may need may need 50,000 milligrams But more likely you’re going to need 100,000 milligrams. And you know, when you really get to a point where you know, life is is almost finished. And you should never get to that stage doses of up to 200,000 milligrams or 2 million grams have been given. I mean, I was told that if you give any more than 100 milligrams, this by the so called medical experts in this country, who train a lot of doctors, you’re going to cause kidney damage. Well, 100 milligrams is nothing compared to 100,000 milligrams. And you still don’t see the renal damage they claim, you’ve got to be cautious, you’ve got to be sure there’s plenty of fluids going in. But I think the message is got to get out there and Health Australia Party can keep pushing this message message out that there has to be change. And these people in powerful positions who are responsible for people’s lives need to look at the experience of those who’ve actually been out there and become experts in vitamin therapy, you know, when you go to a doctor and and with that a migraine headache and ask the doctor for herbal medicine because he wouldn’t have a clue. You might look up a little book, give you a few or give you something else or whatever. No, you go to an expert, people with experience. And this is what happened in Wuhan in China and Shanghai, in China and other parts of China. They give the orthodox treatment, the mainstream medical care and drugs to the covid patients but they also give them vitamin C and other nutrients and they also give them traditional Chinese medicines.

Molly Knight 1:04:40
Yeah, exactly. As it should be combined therapy approach. Absolutely.

Okay, next question Ian a doctor in the US and ICU doctor has said the treatment is wrong for COVID as these patients don’t have pneumonia, but seem to be presenting with symptoms as though they have altitude sickness. What, what’s your thoughts on this?

Prof. Brighthope 1:05:06
`Well, it is like an altitude sickness. It’s not a classical pneumonia. What is happening and it’s only been recently discovered that these free radicals produce stickiness of the blood and the blood becomes very sticky and the blood that’s circulating around the air sacs in the lungs, the blood circulates around the air sacs and picks up the oxygen and gives off the carbon dioxide so you breathe off carbon dioxide, that blood becomes very sticky and those little arteries are called arterioles. Around the air sacs the lining becomes hyper oxidative it becomes damaged. And so free radicals are formed there and it causes stickiness of the blood and that blood when it becomes sticky forms little clots. So the the the air sacs are surrounded by clotted blood if you like. So it’s not a classical pneumonia where the air sacs fill up with whole lot of white blood cells and become solid is very This is why they give these patients heparin. heparin is anti-coagulant to stop the blood getting sticky. What else stops the blood getting sticky? Vitamin E? vitamin C?

Molly Knight 1:06:18
Vitamin C, yep.

Prof. Brighthope 1:06:22
So you give it before all of that happens. And you give you can give other things to stop the damage to the blood vessel walls as well. I won’t go into that tonight because I want to try and keep this. You still give your C, D and zinc and let the doctors give you heparin in the hospital . And the other thing to stop me from being shown recently is a cortisone substance called dexamethasone. And I don’t have any objection to heparin into dexamethasone. They’re very, very important in this. Okay. cortisone is a natural substance and heparin, isn’t it? Yes.

Molly Knight 1:07:05
Okay, next one. What is the difference between the Coronavirus that basically causes the common cold and this variant called COVID-19?

Prof. Brighthope 1:07:15
Good question, hard one for me to answer? I’m not a biologist. My understanding is that these spike proteins on this Coronavirus are different in terms of their mechanisms of action. And they actually, I think, have an effect on the ACE receptor, which is the angiotensin converting enzyme receptor of the cell and actually just damages the receptor. And that damage allows it to enter the cell And the ACE receptor, the angiotensin converting enzyme receptor is one of these receptors involved in blood pressure regulation. So people on ACE inhibitors, where these inhibitors actually allow the formation of more of the receptors, because there’s more receptors, they’re more viral particles can actually enter the cell. That’s my understanding of it. And that’s how it’s different. And the spike protein produces some sort of an enzyme that’s unique to that to this particular COVID-19 virus. And its probably because of some mutation.

Molly Knight 1:08:46
Okay, there was a question about using ventilators. But we did touch on that, that it’s the wrong treatment.

Prof. Brighthope 1:08:54
Well, I would prefer with our techniques. All of us know now what we would do, we would not get to the stage where we need to go into intensive care and preferably, we would also not be in a situation where we need to go into into a hospital. But if you have to, then the intravenous vitamin C should be started straightaway. We’re actually designing a study at the moment to follow these, these recommendations but I can’t say much more about that at the moment.

Molly Knight 1:09:23
Sure, okay. But that’s, that’s great.

Now, next one, why do hospitals get paid for certain diagnosis for instance, in the US, the hospitals get $39,000 for each patient that uses a ventilator? I believe this does also happen here in Australia. To me it sounds like a conflict of interest to the true cause of illness or to the correct form of treatment. Can you share your thoughts on this? Please?

Don’t know okay.

Prof. Brighthope 1:09:55
I really don’t know. I mean, I’ve heard I’ve heard things along those lines, but I don’t know any detail and I hope that that sort of thing doesn’t happen, but I can’t say much more than that.

Molly Knight 1:10:10
Well, I don’t know. Okay, next one, what are your thoughts around wearing masks?

Prof. Brighthope 1:10:16
Again, that’s controversial. But if you’ve got good masks, it does help to reduce the spread. If you’ve got covid and you’re breathing out or spitting out, particles with the virus in it, and you’ve got a mask on, there’s much less risk of those particles gettinginto the environment. So if you if you’ve got active illness, definitely wearing masks is important. If you are asymptomatic, but you’ve been shown to have the virus, then wearing the mask is important in protecting others as well. Because even when you speak you’re spitting out particles of virus in saliva. coughing Absolutely. I mean, if you are simply symptomatic reside at home too, until you’re over the infection. Wearing masks or protection is is possibly a scientific but there’s there’s conflicting evidence, but certainly I think in places like Hong Kong and Taiwan masks were used and social distancing and hygiene thing of the hands and other forms of hygiene were strictly adhered to right from the beginning because Taiwan had experienced SARS. And no it was serious, and they knew exactly what to do when Wuhan announced the this virus had leaked out and causing problems in your home. So Taiwan shut down immediately. Taiwan is the island off mainland China and I have colleagues there who I know and basically they didn’t shut down. They kept on going because they knew what to do.

Molly Knight 1:12:14
All right, someone thanks Ian, sorry, is there anything more there? Yes. All right. Um, what what do you do if you have a vitamin C allergy?

Prof. Brighthope 1:12:25
No such thing.

Molly Knight 1:12:26
No such thing. No. Okay.

Prof. Brighthope 1:12:31
If somebody’s saying that they’ve got a vitamin C allergy maybe vitamin C made out of sugarcane, or maybe made out of sugar beet, there may be residual bits and pieces of things from the sugarcane and the sugar beet that they’re reacting to, but the amount of vitamin the amount in the vitamin C will be neutralized by the very powerful anti allergy effects and vibrancy. The best thing for an allergy is vitamin C. Okay, what these people who say that they’ve got allergy to vitamin C, probably suffering from is a, an early commencement of a detoxification program that the vitamin C is initiating the vitamin C’s immune system to become more active, it stimulates them to be more active with the enzymes in the liver to be more active. So what’s probably doing is helping the liver to clear out substances that have been residing in the system for a long period of time. And it’s like a dirty old pipe, you know, you get to pump up the dirty old pipe and pump all the rubbish out and all of a sudden you’ve got rubbish comming out at the other end and causing a mess. Well, it’s relative, she is actually forcing the liver to pump a lot of rubbish in to the gut, into the bile, and your system is having a reaction to it. So what I say to these people, you know, take very small doses And very frequently over a period of time so your system can get used to it and not forcing all the rubbish out of the pipe all at once, but you’re just slowly pushing it out. So the other end you can cope with the rubbish and disposal of it.

Molly Knight 1:14:14
Okay, so crawl through the pipes, I guess. Yeah. Okay, um, the next one. Do you think COVID-19 was a man made virus or naturally occurring somehow jumping from animal to human

Prof. Brighthope 1:14:30
jumping from animal to human? I don’t know. I mean, yes, men as making viral is making viral particles we can do that we can make parts of viruses. But the the, the evidence is not very, not very good evidence from from what I’ve read. And it’s more likely if you’ve seen the wet markets in China. I’ve seen many, many wet markets in China and you know, there, there are so many different animals and animal parts all being mixed up together. There are live animals and they’re dead animals. It’s so easy for a virus in that situation to jump from one species to another, and into a human being. I mean, it when you talk about a wet market its wet, wet wet, wet with blood, wite with pieces of animals and you know, there’s a chopping block here and chopping off some unusual animal and another one over here, but that’s the Chinese culture. It’s always been like that. It’s just that in the villages it was small. Now we’ve got these huge cities with these huge markets, there is a there is a very slight opportunity for a virus to say, Okay, I’m adapted to this particular animal but that one over there is looking pretty good. So you know, there is an opportunity. So you know, it’s gone from one particular animal and probably from the bat to the, the animal that’s good like a anteater and into a human, and the evidence for that is strong.

Molly Knight 1:16:05
Okay. Okay, thank you. Um, so someone said, assuming vitamins and herbal medicines will help is good to take them on today or just wait to when you get some symptoms. And I think you’re saying take it daily take stuff protect yourself all the time.

Prof. Brighthope 1:16:24
Yes, there’s no evidence to say that you live a normal life in this country that you’re going to have the right levels, the optimal levels of vitamin D, there’s no there’s no evidence, the evidence is that you’re going to be low or deficient, especially during the winter, especially if you’re white, and you know, and the other is “collectors”, if you’ve got darker skin you’re certainly going to be low and or deficient. And what is low or deficient depends on your definitions. But what I like is, this is low, and this is high and I like people to be up here or even a bit higher providing to certain levels that we know in the lab 18 to 85 milligrams per millilitre is one factor and another is millimoles per liter. Above 130 140 millimoles is the other measure so it’s important that we be scientific about the vitamin D everybody needs vitamin C. You don’t worry about testing for it because there aren’t any reliable tests the only the best test is the white blood cells.

Molly Knight 1:17:36
Ok that’s the dog, sorry, having a coughing fit. Do you want to take them out I’ll open the door sorry sorry everybody. Now another question Can vitamin K2 be taken while supplementing with D3? Should it yes should it be taken together?

Prof. Brighthope 1:18:00
What Why would you be taking it? Number one for bones and number two for the health of your coronary arteries and reducing the calcification in coronary arteries? I think K2 is a is a very useful vitamin as well. It’s a fat soluble vitamin like D. So if you’ve got a really good reason for taking it, yes

Molly Knight 1:18:25
Allright, I know, someone else has said, what about the mandates of flu vaccination to visit the aged in nursing homes? That must be for the visitor for people visiting people. Do you think that’s reasonable, I guess. Protect the elderly?

Prof. Brighthope 1:18:51
The more flu vaccines you have the more likely you’re going to have a bad Coronavirus infection.

Molly Knight 1:19:02
Okay, so,

Prof. Brighthope 1:19:03
You’ve had half a dozen flu injections your immune system, in some people, possibly many people, will have a bad reaction to to COVID. So I don’t, I’m not supporting the use of mandated vaccines. And I would prefer people to do to do the program that we’re talking about but more importantly for hospital, the nursing home, the institution to begin with vitamin D and vitamin C and zinc. And that’s the that’s the best way to protect them. And also put these give these people an opportunity to go out in the sun even in winter. When the sun is at its zenith and exposed and you know, 20% of their body, to their skin, to the sun rays. Putting blockou on actually stops the UVB get into the skin so blockouts no good.. And vigorous, I don’t know how good this science is, but the vigorous washing of the skin with soap after being in the sun may wash out of some of the cells that actually produce the vitamin D but I don’t know how good that science is.

Molly Knight 1:20:07
So something to research Ian

Prof. Brighthope 1:20:22
Don’t wash very often and who live in a, you know, not a sunny climate, it’s probably a good thing not to do.

Molly Knight 1:20:34
Okay, in Victoria, the numbers of COVID positive patients is growing and as the government is paying 1500 dollars to everyone who has a swab done, so of course lots of people are lining up and of course the numbers will escalate. And it says it doesn’t make a lot of sense to me as most people are clearly asymptomatic and not ill. So Do you understand why there’s a purpose in this?

Prof. Brighthope 1:21:02
No, I don’t. I really don’t. And I think it’s, it’s, it’s the situation’s been absolutely chaotic right from the start. And the science has been chaotic, you know, arguing about social distancing, how far apart wash your hands wear masks and so forth. And decisions are being made on the hop, Fail to plan, plan to fail. I mean, that’s the story. And it’s, it’s working within chaos and making decisions to do something that’s causing a lot of this. Yes, the social distancing, the fence, the fence, ringing, ring, ring fence, or what are they calling it, the hygiene, all of these things are very, very important. But paying money to the people to do tests, it’s just more waste. waste. waste. waste is what we’re seeing huge amount of waste, wasted lives, wasted businesses wasted economy. And there there are better answers. And this is what makes me very, very frustrated, very sad and very angry that these sort of activities are occurring. I mean, I wrote to Daniel Andrews, at the beginning. I mean, there’s not too many people I didn’t send a message to and, you know, it’s sort of like it falls on deaf ears, you know, this guy must be a crank, you know, what’s vitamin D? In? Just, you know, vitamin D is what you get from the sunlight. How can that prevent, you know, they don’t understand this stuff actually goes into the cells of the immune system and facilitates the production of antibodies. It’s simple, you know, I just, I mean, a lot of these politicians are so poorly educated. In fact the entire population needs educating with regard to self help and healthcare and not rely on a disease care system, which is very, very good when when you need it, and should only be treating people who suffer from trauma. We shouldn’t we shouldn’t be having most diseases that we’re faced with, we can prevent them. But as I said before, we’re on a fast train to ruining, runing the race.

Molly Knight 1:21:25
And it’s quite scary, isn’t it?

Prof. Brighthope 1:23:26
Well, they need to wake up. This is this is just a dress rehearsal. Not you know, virologists have been telling us about the coming pandemic for a long time. Even Dr Professor Bill Gates was telling us about it. He got that message from better educated people. You know, we know what’s going to happen and we know that’s going to happen because the environment is suppressing our immunity. There’s so much so much documentation about that one of my colleagues in Melbourne wrote a paper about pollution and the closer you live to a freeway more likely you’re going to have heart disease lung disease strokes and and possibly many cancers and it’s and it the closer you get, the more likely you’re going to get these disorders and that’s just one aspect of our environment

Molly Knight 1:23:58
There’s many isn’t there

Prof. Brighthope 1:24:27
There are Molly you know, we’re full of chemicals and pesticides, heavy metals and residues and these things you just test the fat and test the blood you find it you do a hair analysis you find everybody’s got lead arsenic cadmium mercury in their systems. You know,

Molly Knight 1:24:45
Its a wonder we’re all walking around really

Prof. Brighthope 1:24:48
We’re pretty resilient but the more resilient we become sometimes I think, the more insane we become.

Molly Knight 1:24:56
Yes, blase perhaps

Prof. Brighthope 1:24:59
Well blase or living living in a toxic environment. I remember reading Rachel what was her name “A Silent Spring” back in the 1960s Rachel Carson’s book. It was scary then and hasn’t hasn’t improved. It’s got worse.

Molly Knight 1:25:19
Well, you have to wonder where are we going?

Prof. Brighthope 1:25:21
Well, your listeners, I mean, it’s very important for your listeners to talk to other people about this. And, you know, I think the more we try to get messages out, the better off we are in the long run, because if we keep losing the environment, at the rate we’re of doing it, there’s going to be more and more disease and new diseases. We’re seeing new diseases, we just type disorders and cancers that are becoming more difficult to treat and the canary in the coal mine or the canaries in the coal mine are our children and its being reflected in their behavior disorders, learning disorders, ADHD, autism and the increasing neurological neuropsychiatric conditions that are affecting our children.

Molly Knight 1:26:14
We have to wake up and learn, make changes make a difference.

Prof. Brighthope 1:26:20
Yeah, I agree. But I think changes to government policy is very important. I delivered a National Press Club address in 2002. I’ve got it on my system here. And I was talking about it back then. Was there

Molly Knight 1:26:36
Twemty years ago basically,

Prof. Brighthope 1:26:38
Yeah yeah, was there any, any change?

Molly Knight 1:26:42
No. Well, let’s hope we can start a new path Ian and actually get some change.

Prof. Brighthope 1:26:47
Well I hope that the Health Australia Party can get bigger and stronger, you know, because there’s no political party in this country that focuses on health. I mean, the closest party to health is are The Greens. And thats to basically look at the health of the environment, our health is not considered. But heealth is health of the environment, health of the individuals, health of the economy, and health of business, health of all of our activities.

Molly Knight 1:27:26
hmm. Exactly. Yeah. Health for all. Alright, well, Ian, on that note, I’d like to thank you so much for joining us tonight and imparting your wisdom with us, I’ve learned quite a few things. So I thank you for that. And I’m quite sure that our audience will have gleaned some good information and so hit the vitamin C, the vitamin D and the zinc and get us through winter from anything basically. Thank you Ian much appreciated.

Prof. Brighthope 1:28:01
You’re welcome. My pleasure. Good night everyone.